MaNGOS / SD2 / UDB SYSTEM CHECK

[erazare]

ok, normally i could really care less what people do.. and so long as everything keeps progessing nicely I dont see why anyone should.

However... the three big contributers to the MaNGOS system have been really getting under my skin for quite some time and I am sure that this goes for others in the community as well.

My biggest complaints are the following:

1. Asinine Forum Staff that close threads, flame members, and are generally retarded.

2. the "Pass the buck" game

issue #1 -

Have you ever noticed, especially if you are new to the site, that the staff (especially the lower staff like Davemm) like to bash the poster for asking a perfectly innocent question? That they always fall back on "Use Search" or "We dont support that"... I dont know what logic they live on but I think ... regardless of how iognorant the question is the staff should either (A) attempt to answer it, or (B) wait for another staff to answer it and shut the hell up!

Answering with the predefined answers doesnt answer anything... and if a person actually DOES run a search on a popular topic they will get 8-20 threads to read that have been closed by one of these idiots who havent answered the question... so of course someone's going to post it again.

Issue #2 -

Who controls MaNGOS ultimately? same question to SD2 and UDB Staff... I **KNOW** (that is, i am not guessing.. i am dead positive) that upper staff on mangos have upper staff accts on botth other sites. Thus said, ALL THREE SITES know what the oither site is doing insofar as advancements... so why dont you knock off the ignorant "well we arent <insert sitename here>, we dont support that fgeature please post it on the respective site"

Now I realize that you dont want SD2 subjects or UDB subjects on mangos (which I think the latter is ignorant... YOU build the structure here you should have freakin answers for issues generated by your own damn code); But lets make an example:

Mangos pushes the base master repo to 3.3.0.a but SD2 and UDB act like they had no idea this was coming and then flame people that ask the obvious question : if you support the mangos project, and you are always telling us to wait until MANGOS supports something.. what kind of rocket scientist is required to convey that that whole push and the subsequent excuses afterwards makes you all look bad?

I am sorry for the long post.. but this has been building up with me for over a year now... If I have upset you and you are staff.. well I did my job! Staff gets their ass kissed entirely too much IMO anyway... it wont piss you off if it isnt true now will it?

(stopwatch set... lets see who closes the thread first...and the excuse they use since this is the public, general, forum)

[XTZGZoReX]

How about not talking about things you have no clue about? MaNGOS has always just upgraded to new client versions without caring about the state of SD2 and UDB - in fact, many MaNGOS devs are not even in contact with the UDB/SD2 devs. Now, sure, you can shake what I just said off as an "excuse", but then we won't get anywhere at all, no matter how we try to communicate.

Sure - all sites know what all sites are doing. Sites, not projects. There's a difference. For example, UDB devs might not always be informed of core changes.

Now, I don't know where your "100% positive" comes from, because no one controls MaNGOS, UDB, nor SD2 ultimately. This is not a communism - in fact, the team works very much like a democracy. Even Vladimir, contrary to popular belief, doesn't know the answer to everything, or know if all patches are OK, etc. - there's no "central person in charge".

Now, I do agree on one point; sometimes, a search simply doesn't suffice, and thus asking the question is perfectly valid.

Anyway, the way MaNGOS is managed will not change for legal reasons. That's just how it is.

[erazare]

gore... for 1, my exact words were:

"I **KNOW** (that is, i am not guessing.. i am dead positive) that upper staff on mangos have upper staff accts on botth other sites"

I didnt say that one person ultimately controls anything...

as for the legal reasons I have heard the stories through the grapevine about certain staff here being actual employees of Blizz and such and really could care less either way and as far as Blizz cracking down on these server projects I should think its one of the furthest things from thier lawyers minds considering the fraud charges and breech of contract lawsuits that have been going lately in the UK, China, Germany, and other countries.

thing is.. as you can read I DO have my fingers on the pulse here, and i realize to some extent that if the devs dont have time to answer we can only hope that means they are working on something, but my MAIN complaint in this post is the way that the forum staff and subsequently its devs handle post responses. Instead of flaming, using canned responses, or killing threads.. why not actually try to answer the questions.. even if you DO NOT HAVE AN ANSWER... you can at least either shut the hell up, or SAY you do not know the answer.

[VladimirMangos]

#1 I personally close and will close threads when some noob who don't know how use search ask idiotic questions and questions asked and answered 1000-time. I not care what you think about this. So please avoid attack Davemm because this will not help. Maybe i must ban you at week for example for prove this?

#2 Many times say: mangos not have own scripts/DB. All scripts/DB projects is _INDEPENDENT_. Not important that some mangos devs have personally some rights at other project forums or maybe they are other project team memebers in same time. They members of other team not as mangos devs but by personal choice. mangos project and other teams can have different points when make releases, what support and how manage projects. Different teams can have own reason do it differently. Main point that you must attempt understand: mangos and referenced SD2/UDB is _really_ idependent projects. Friendly but independent.

(stopwatch set... lets see who closes the thread first...and the excuse they use since this is the public, general, forum)

This is mangos project forum and then we have own right manage it by own reason. This is not something public domain

[erazare]

...vlad...

I dont think i need to respond to #1 it speaks for itself and completely validates my original post

as for #2.. well thats a good definition of your answer... #2

1. I couldnt care less if you banish me for pointing out the obvious.. it amazes me how offended you appear by this... is it because you are a team leader of mroe than one project? could be...

ALL i said about the other sites is that if the DEV TEAMS **KNOW** what each other are doing, they should stop acting like they didnt when a person asks about it. Classic example is just recently with UDB and MANGOS... UDB is still planning to drop another 3.2.2a RELEASE for thier next major drop... I bet thats going to go over real well.

really Vlad I have to say that as a developer I have a great deal of respect for you, but as a spokesman you should find other work

[XTZGZoReX]

and i realize to some extent that if the devs dont have time to answer we can only hope that means they are working on something

I think I can safely answer for the whole team.

as for the legal reasons I have heard the stories through the grapevine about certain staff here being actual employees of Blizz and such and really could care less either way and as far as Blizz cracking down on these server projects I should think its one of the furthest things from thier lawyers minds considering the fraud charges and breech of contract lawsuits that have been going lately in the UK, China, Germany, and other countries.

You heard wrong. Really. If we had blizz devs, things would be much easier.

1. I couldnt care less if you banish me for pointing out the obvious.. it amazes me how offended you appear by this... is it because you are a team leader of mroe than one project? could be...

Sigh... He's not a team leader ANYWHERE. No one is. There's no "official team leader". Please get this into your head.

[erazare]

I think I can safely answer for the whole team.

You heard wrong. Really. If we had blizz devs, things would be much easier.

Sigh... He's not a team leader ANYWHERE. No one is. There's no "official team leader". Please get this into your head.

ok corrected... it seems the two of you are obsessing on this sole person in power... I believe i said above I am NOT saying that ONE person controls everything.. tell me why THAT isnt sinking into YOUR heads?!

I should have asked if he was on intermingled teams... which of course we all know he is so its really an unimportant question.

[XTZGZoReX]

No?

I'm saying it one last time: No one is a team leader. And - take note, this is unrelated to what I just said - if someone works on two projects, then the work they do at these two projects is independent, and MaNGOS is not forced to cooperate with the other teams just because of this.

That's not to say we won't cooperate - but what kind of cooperation is it even that you want to see? The teams are as informed as currently possible. What more do you want?

[VladimirMangos]

which of course we all know he is so its really an unimportant question.

Yes, i am also mangoszero team member. Maybe i don't know about some cases? lol...

[erazare]

is there some kind of translation problem going on here?

I keep stating that I KNOW that there is no ONE person in charge of everything... and gore, you keep arguing with me telling me the exact same thing I have been saying... ?!?!?!

as for cooperation, again, i dont care if you cooperate or not tbh.. what I am saying is you cannot say that you do not know what the other is doing, thats a load of crap...

[davemm]

To answer the point aimed directly at me, take a close look at the threads that get closed, They usually involve questions that have been asked 1000 times before, answered in many of the guides, answered in the FAQ, or so blatantly obvious, that if you have to ask them you shouldnt be using Manogs.

NO thread with a genuine question will be closed. But, if someone comes and asks "Where do i get mangos from?" "What does "DBC outdated mean"" "When will you support client 9.3" "Need help with <database project>" then the thread WILL get closed.

As you should know, Mangos project is responsible for the structure of the database ONLY, NOT the content. As using database content will be illegal in many countries, it is, quite rightly, not discussed here. Mangos in itself is not going to cause Blizz much of a headache, if we started with the content/copyright information here, then there could be no end of problems. The same goes for things like client editing.

As for people being involved in more than one project, I really dont see how that is any of your business! People/staff/devs are free to do what they like, when they like. They are here because they want to be, and (hopefully) enjoy what mangos has to offer them.

Mangos is not built to be compatible with any particular 3rd party project, but rather the 3rd party projects are built to be compatible with mangos.

I would suggest you do some more research and check your facts before making any more senseless flame posts, especially when most of your facts are incorrect.

[erazare]

ok... since this is obviously going to be a consistant runaround as usual, avoiding the actual point of the original post I am going to withdraw

[VladimirMangos]

As known that useless discuss with ppl who believe to conspiracy theories. erazare place self in same position. If you think that devs post lie in own posts then what can bediscuss more...

[xeross155]

Hmm, It's Zor not Gore, the sequence Gore doesn't even occur in his nickname.

And I haven't encountered a genuine question being locked with a use the search reply.

Lastly, I do agree a little on the pass-the-buck stuff, there's been some occasions where I thought a question could be answered here (Though I don't really remember what ones).

~Xeross

[NoFantasy]

@Xeross: i agree, there is a small tendency to playing ping-pong, like "it's not mangos problem, it's script problem" and then you find a statement at "the others" site that it's not a script problem, it's mangos problem. The cause? In my view, it's very often ignorance about trying to figure out how it's really all connected. Sure, it can be a script problem, that the script is not made, but then what is the script is just like it should be, but need a spell to function properly? Blame <random> guy at Mangos, blame script for not making a hack or try to figure out how it should work and make fix for bot mangos and script? Clearly, too few choose the last option.

If people would spend more time to put their head in to the code, trying to figure out how stuff is really connected, maybe the original poster would never have posted what he did.

[erazare]

well personally speaking, you will recall that it was I who started the big debate about mangchat being taken over by trinity over a year ago and then it came back to life and Ihave been caring of the repo whenever it is incompatible. as xeross can agree as he has done such a fine job doing so when i havent.

and yes I see several ignorant posts that are blatantly obvious that a person hasnt researched the problem very much, but you cannot disagree that there are multiple closed posts about the same topic several times throughout all the sites.. quite clerarly saying "use the search function" and then closing the thread isnt doing anyone any good at all.

as for what xeross and NoF bring to the table i agree pretty deeply except Xer0ss's nitpicking on someone's nick... hardly anyone ever uses my nick correctly i dont care so long as we know who is being addressed.. TBH the first thing that comes to mind when i see that nick is Goretex, so...eh