One last statement

[eyerobot]

I was under the mistaken impression that mangos, and scriptdev, and some databases, were finally beginning to come together into a workable project.

Let's start with GIT, What a piece of trash. No usable Gui, No version tracking system, Completely alienates users from anything they are familiar with. And forced upon mangos users with no regard for the high amount of complaints about it.

In the past few years, ive watched mangos make one stupid decision after another. Instead of working with the developers from scriptdev, or UDB, you say its not our problem, And just leave things hanging in a non working condition. Then i can go to their forums, and see them say the same thing about you.

There has been no cooperation of any kind. Its like a competition, to see who can stare down the other guy, until some unheard of person finally submits a patch, and proves who is right.

Ive seen an untold number of people banned for speaking their mind about the problems here.

You make decisions, with no regard for the average users opinion. You call it an open forum but its not. because anyone that speaks out is banned. You do most of the important coding in a closed group, and dont even bother to respond to most requests from forum users about the status of the project. and tell them to shut up and wait.

This is a direct violation of the mangos guidelines, This project was meant to be open source, and has to be kept that way at all times, regardless what kind of mood your in at the time, Or it violates the law, by not being a learning tool. Because you did it with the intention of creating a wow server, and in private.

Yes we would all like to do everything right the first time, So we create our part of the project, and leave the rest to scriptdev and the databases to finish. But somehow the word never actually goes out to these guys, that they have to change something, until after someone starts complaining.

I would ask you to explain to me why you guys have this elaborate setup of svn's, And multiple groups of people working separately on the same project. But i really dont care anymore. You have proven that you cant make basic decisions for a large project, and get them right.

I am out of here, Mangos has been nothing but a headache to me since i came here.

I fully expect you ban happy mods, to ban me for speaking the truth, But you better pay attention to what i said, before you completely kill this project.

And like so many before me...........adios!

[subhuman_bob]

Instead of working with the developers from scriptdev, or UDB, you say its not our problem, And just leave things hanging in a non working condition. Then i can go to their forums, and see them say the same thing about you.

There has been no cooperation of any kind. Its like a competition, to see who can stare down the other guy, until some unheard of person finally submits a patch, and proves who is right.

There has traditionally been a good amount of cooperation between all three groups.* Granted, most of it occurs "behind the scenes" where you can't see it- but it does occur.

Think about it- NTSC was both SD2 and MaNGOS dev. NoFantasy both SD2 and UDB. Neo2003 UDB and MaNGOS. How can a person not cooperate with themselves?

Support for each project is given at that project's website- by request of parties involved. Example: a while back, we had a SD2 support area at UDB forums. Ntsc requested that we remove it and direct SD2 bugs to be posted at SD2 forums. He had a valid reason- when he goes looking for bug reports, it's quickest to search just one forum instead of several forums. Can you imagine the headache for the users also if they had to look at three forums to see if their bug was already reported?

UDB no longer has a SD2 bug area, and we direct people with SD2 problems to the SD2 forums. This isn't because of some sort of stare-down between the groups. Once you get the full information behind why it's done, it's an example of cooperation instead of an example of a stare-down.

This is why UDB directs people to MaNGOS forum for MaNGOS support, and why we direct people to SD2 forum for SD2 support.

With MaNGOS forum it's even more difficult, as there are multiple DBs out there. How can you really expect MaNGOS to even begin to offer support for all of them? For a while, there were two scripting projects also.

As for accepting patches, both UDB and MaNGOS avoid workarounds whenever possible. If you look around, there are numerous DBC values, creature flags, gameobject flags, etc that we still have no idea what they mean. Figure out what means what is the biggest part of fixing everything. If (as you described it) some unheard of person figures it out, great! That brings us one step closer to fixing the problems. Sometimes an "unheard of person" is exactly what is needed- a different perspective to look at the problem differently and find a solution.

*I say there was traditionally cooperation between the projects. Those who recently cooperated less, have moved on by their own choice. Cooperation should continue again in the future, as it did in the past.

Let's start with GIT, What a piece of trash. No usable Gui, No version tracking system, Completely alienates users from anything they are familiar with. And forced upon mangos users with no regard for the high amount of complaints about it.

Personally I prefer a command-line interface to a GUI. Maybe I'm the exception to the rule here, but I prefer its interface.

You say it alienates people from what they're familiar with- but I have to point out that I wasn't familiar with SVN before I started using MaNGOS. So that pretty much nullifies that argument. Any Linux user damn well better be familiar with using a command-line interface. Maybe it's better phrased as "it confuses mouse jockeys because now they have to type instead of just click."

I also have to point out that there was a high amount of complaints with SVN as well.

If we want to start with complaints, I haven't been able to find an OS/2-port of Git for my eComStation box. However, as far as I know, I'm one of two people who use this OS for pulling in source code- so it's not really worth bitching about.

[Birdman]

I agree that mangos is becoming more and more an uninteresting project with no hope of ever reaching the final goal most users just give up on it, seeing no progress for months then Theluda fades in and out when the project is in danger makes an announcement, or a forum/svn upgrade to keep people excited, unfotunately this is not the case.

Isn't this project about learing ? I haven't seen a single tutorial on explaining how the mangos source code works, don't you realise that by putting a tutorial explaining the framework, game mechanics and it's features more and more coders will have an easyer time understanding, writing patches or submitting bugfixes ?

Why does it take another branch to force people into taking actions, this it what is has all come to, fighting,bickering and drama just like in the other immature projects, what a waste of resources when we don't have any to begin with, do all the work twice, because of a simple test branch in the mangos svn, when there are(were) a lot of dev's willing and pleeding for a place where they could work and code massive ammounts of code but they weren't even listened too and the project remained stale and decayed more and more.

I haven't seen a single ounce of drama since i first found the mangos forums, but all big giants have their endurance, look at the active users there used to be over 200 and now there are 50 on a good day, why must a project so good fade away slowly just when it's just starting to be usable and decent.

This is becomming more and more a dev project each day with no hope for the basic user to learning anything, i have no hope for this project now, old bugs will remain old bugs and it will probably take years before we see the most essential bugs being fixed such as looting or target management.

Sorry for continuing the negativity but this is how i feel, i don't see a future for this project now, maybe it will reach version 1.0 in 10 years but by then user count will=0....

PS: VB Boards suck bigtime, i have never seen such a depressive and cold looking forum.

[Metal]

Unluckly the eyerobot has right.

I have nothing to add more becouse last 2-3 post has said it all.

[TheLuda]

Everybody is free to have his or her opinion.

Yes, things have not been working out as they should lately and this is changing. There have been some attempts to make things run better, and this one is different.

Git, Lighthouse, and others are just tools, and everyone can adapt to them.

All I can say is that this move to Git is both a technical one and one that is the beginning of a completely different workflow for MaNGOS.

Ever since the project started there have been patches contributed and changes requested, and it was easy in the beginning. Now we have loads of users, thousands instead of hundreds and we have to follow a different approach to handle stuff.

All I can say is that MaNGOS is switching to test-driven development with this Git move, and that things will change. This is not about forum colours, this is not about egos, this is all about the best way to turn development into a more reliable state, to make things reproducible, and to reach source code state, where Joe Average does not need to use version control systems, as we have regular releases every 3rd month.

We want to finally reach a stable state, and the recent changes are just part of that goal.

[TheLuda]

I agree that mangos is becoming more and more an uninteresting project with no hope of ever reaching the final goal most users just give up on it

There never was any sort of final goal defined by the project team. This is a common assumption made by every user. We never had a goal. This has changed with the recent move.

when the project is in danger makes an announcement, or a forum/svn upgrade to keep people excited, unfotunately this is not the case.

It does not matter if this project is in danger, and I would not count Trinity or ArcEmu/Ascent as danger. Every developer involved does it for fun, and if we stop having fun, we simply shut down MaNGOS, and leave you with the sources and say goodbye.

Isn't this project about learing ? I haven't seen a single tutorial on explaining how the mangos source code works, don't you realise that by putting a tutorial explaining the framework, game mechanics and it's features more and more coders will have an easyer time understanding, writing patches or submitting bugfixes ?

Yes, it is about learning. But have you ever considered that it was only one person involved in documentation in this project? Do you have any rough idea how much work it is to document everything? We are doing this now, after the Git move, but this time all developers work on documentation. Code documentation is required now, as you can see in the new coding standards.

Why does it take another branch to force people into taking actions

Honestly, Trinity had nothing to do with this change. I got to know about it a few days after the changes had been started and where already in progress.

VB Boards suck bigtime, i have never seen such a depressive and cold looking forum.

The look of this board is as cold as IPB board is. This is personal preference. This theme is intended to make stuff readable. We are not in charge for eye candy. Of course, if someone wants to develop a pretty theme...

[Birdman]

This project was never in danger because of Ascent or Trinity, i have watched this project slowly kill itself within the last few months, what i don't understand is, when there are volunteers willing to do the work, the project should mold itself around them, i know how hard leadership is Theluda and i understand that sometimes you have to make a decision for somebody because they can't make the right one on thier own, that's what being a lider is all about, but what is a lider without his crew, this is the 2nd time the mangos team has spit leaving less and less resources behind, yes i understand that there had to be a change to git for personal prefference or efficiency, but have the dev team split in two again just because of the working tools, people can adapt to them but shouldn't this project adapt to it's users and volunteers.

About documentation yes i am aware that it is monumental work, maybe that's why it should have started long ago when people were a bit more exited about this whole thing, you yourself said that you payed a lot of money to make this project legal and help people around the world learn what a MMORPG server is all about, and if that wasn't your goal the i don't know what this project was about in the first place, i have to admit this has been a both educational and fun project for me and my goal was to see this project reach 1.0, but what's so bad about that, even after 1.0 is here the project can still continue ever stronger then before.

I really tought this was the one, the project that could withstand all this egocentrism and immaturity, and of course it's still standing but it's not the same anymore the whole revamp has made a lot of users that were willing to stay with the slow advancement, alienate themselves and make threads such as this one, all of this change is a little to late into the project and i can see the community crumble down.

Again i'm sorry for the doom's day approch of my post, but i really hate to see such a great project turn out the way it has.

[TheLuda]

Things always change, and you can not satisfy everyone. I know it is late for a change of such size, but the change is coming, and I guess sooner or later people will notice the outcome will be for good.

There are several changes which the community yet can not see as they are running in the background, but I am sure within the next weeks change for good will become visible.

[Wyk3d]

Let's start with GIT, What a piece of trash. No usable Gui, No version tracking system, Completely alienates users from anything they are familiar with. And forced upon mangos users with no regard for the high amount of complaints about it.

There was a high amount of complaints about SVN, that it's slow, that it's hard to make branches that it's hard to merge changes etc so now we switched to Git. It makes a lot of steps forward and a few back, but once people get used to it's not so hard to use.

There has been no cooperation of any kind. Its like a competition, to see who can stare down the other guy, until some unheard of person finally submits a patch, and proves who is right.

Just not true, as has been explained above.

Ive seen an untold number of people banned for speaking their mind about the problems here.

You call it an open forum but its not. because anyone that speaks out is banned. You do most of the important coding in a closed group, and dont even bother to respond to most requests from forum users about the status of the project. and tell them to shut up and wait.

There are people who say they've been banned for no reason other than speaking up, but they are really lieing to themselves to preserve their image. Some people like Paradox say that when in fact they got banned for insulting other forum members and staff, and just generally being a total pain in the ass, not for the content of what he said. Other people like Brian and KingPin say these kinds of stuff because they made rants, complaints, insults and acted childishly. Their posts got closed because of that and now they're saying we didn't listen to them. About responding to requests there usually isn't even enough time to read all of them let alone respond.

this is the 2nd time the mangos team has spit leaving less and less resources behind, yes i understand that there had to be a change to git for personal prefference or efficiency, but have the dev team split in two again just because of the working tools, people can adapt to them but shouldn't this project adapt to it's users and volunteers.

In the dev team there hasn't been much of a split. With the trinity thing those who left saw that it's impossible to work with Brian so they either took a break from development or came back. As for Git, all of the dev team has switched over and people are making commits again, there's no split there. A lot of us were disappointed by the poor performance of SVN but other than that this was more for the patch developers who found it hard to merge their changes in SVN. It will take them some time to learn Git but it's supposed to make their work easier.

Why does it take another branch to force people into taking actions

It has been talked about for a loong time that we need to think about git and about clustered forums, but nobody had the time to do it until recently, just a coincidence.

About documentation yes i am aware that it is monumental work, maybe that's why it should have started long ago when people were a bit more exited about this whole thing, you yourself said that you payed a lot of money to make this project legal and help people around the world learn what a MMORPG server is all about, and if that wasn't your goal the i don't know what this project was about in the first place, i have to admit this has been a both educational and fun project for me and my goal was to see this project reach 1.0, but what's so bad about that, even after 1.0 is here the project can still continue ever stronger then before.

It's a learning project but not for people who don't know anything, they should first take courses in C++ and development before they start making patches. After that you can read the code and good C++ style documents itself and there are some comments here and there too. Above all that you can always ask questions.

[Rhyll]

Personally I prefer a command-line interface to a GUI.

Me too. But too bad I can't use the git command-line hehe.

Anyway Wyk3d I don't like how you directly diss Brian, I doubt you have never done else with him than have few discussions.

[jdguzman]

Me too. But too bad I can't use the git command-line hehe.

Anyway Wyk3d I don't like how you directly diss Brian, I doubt you have never done else with him than have few discussions.

I don't see any diss of any sort just a simple statement of facts. But I guess that's all in the eye of the beholder.

[TheLuda]

Anyway Wyk3d I don't like how you directly diss Brian, I doubt you have never done else with him than have few discussions.

It is no diss, he is referring to real things that happened, and that annoyed other developers, too. Wyk3d is just kind enough to not go into further details

[freghar]

This project was never in danger because of Ascent or Trinity, i have watched this project slowly kill itself within the last few months, what i don't understand is, when there are volunteers willing to do the work, the project should mold itself around them, i know how hard leadership is Theluda and i understand that sometimes you have to make a decision for somebody because they can't make the right one on thier own, that's what being a lider is all about, but what is a lider without his crew, this is the 2nd time the mangos team has spit leaving less and less resources behind, yes i understand that there had to be a change to git for personal prefference or efficiency, but have the dev team split in two again just because of the working tools, people can adapt to them but shouldn't this project adapt to it's users and volunteers.

About documentation yes i am aware that it is monumental work, maybe that's why it should have started long ago when people were a bit more exited about this whole thing, you yourself said that you payed a lot of money to make this project legal and help people around the world learn what a MMORPG server is all about, and if that wasn't your goal the i don't know what this project was about in the first place, i have to admit this has been a both educational and fun project for me and my goal was to see this project reach 1.0, but what's so bad about that, even after 1.0 is here the project can still continue ever stronger then before.

I really tought this was the one, the project that could withstand all this egocentrism and immaturity, and of course it's still standing but it's not the same anymore the whole revamp has made a lot of users that were willing to stay with the slow advancement, alienate themselves and make threads such as this one, all of this change is a little to late into the project and i can see the community crumble down.

Again i'm sorry for the doom's day approch of my post, but i really hate to see such a great project turn out the way it has.

1) There was some documentation on the wiki few weeks ago, Doxygen can be useful as well.

2) Did you get the basic idea of Git? Why it differs so much from SVN, why TheLuda said that thing about thousands of users ....

In fact, Git gives you a tons of freedom, source control management representation of open-source. You can actually see it even now -- http://github.com/mangos/mangos/network -- people are forking it and doing custom stuff, I believe this is the way TheLuda meant it. If you have an SVN, you can develop things, but you can either have them in dirty working trees or on your own SVN (which isn't much of a problem now, thanks to assembla & others), however you can never reach the distributed development style as it's possible to do with an decentralized SCM ...

subhuman_bob: "mousists" can use keyboard-on-screen

[Insil]

As i see it, the main issues of mangos have never been adressed. There have been several attempts to work around things, where the common perception seems to be "lets add some opensource framework to the base and hope it fixes the problems" which it obviously dont. I dont know whether this is because of the lack of internal management, but it occurs to me that the real performanceissues are being overlooked, while minor problems blown out of proporsion. Lets face it, mangos has some serious fundemental design flaws that over the years never has been corrected. That ralf guy or whatever he was called, tried to make a patch which would adress the threading issues, although it didnt seem to have been accepted... I'd say mangos has to stop crapping around with minor things and start adressing the real issues which are likely to take a while to rewrite...

[Wyk3d]

Because of people who don't know what they're talking about and are just confusing people who would like to know something but don't know who to believe I'm closing this thread .. most of the above are just rants and totally useless for anyone who wants to know the facts anyway.