mangos foundation - we are getting there

[Auntie Mangos]

I'm not so sure everyone outside the domains you've named are here illegally, MCP. Even in the United States, it is legal to reverse-engineer the game client so long as you follow certain strictures. Compiling or modifying the MaNGOS code should be acceptable nearly everywhere.

I am sorry if my post was misunderstood. My description was intended as an exageration of the real situation which - as it stands - already is perverted in my eyes. Perhaps the smiley was not a sufficient indication of that.

Anyway, I think rumpilstilskin may have brought up a concern some may have. For some MaNGOS may be a place where they download their software to run a local server to play with friends, and it may seem unreasonable why one should engage in a fight for the right to education.

But I don't want to repeat things already posted, the reason for all this remains the same.

[TheLuda]

It has been a while ever since the mangos foundation has appeared on this site, and in the documentation, and up to now it was (and is) a private foundation. Since this is the time of the year, when things are to change, I invite the mangos community to join the change.

What is the purpose of this?

The purpose of mangos is gaining knowledge and insight into the process of development, and we do encourage this. Sadly ... where you live determines what you can do legally.

If you are a European, and a student, you are lucky. You could even legally reverse engineer the official game client using disassembly tools, and other utilities.

If you are from the US and want to avoid the risk of being jailed for violation of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act, you are limited in your options. You then may play the game, observe mechanics, and document them in our Wiki. Anything beyond is a legal risk for you, and we can only advise you to not engage in such activity.

The mangos foundation is supposed to help change this.

Knowledge, insight, learning, studying, expanding your abilities should be a fundamental human right!

What is the connection to the mangos server(s)?

Simple enough: it showcases how an individual can grow in his or her abilities if he/she can learn without the risk of being put to jail. Look around in our amazing community that has been growing and expanding for five years now. There is no other server community as old as ours, and no other as mature, friendly, caring, and sharing as this one.

I - your wooly, elusive sheep - do strongly believe that all of this is only possible because of the exceptional attitude towards freedom and humanity shown by you, our community members. Have you seen other similar projects, where people are treated as kind as here, where even the lowest troll can grow into something better? I doubt it.

So there is your connection: the mangos server project shows how important free, unhindered learning is. Personally I would not want to miss a day of all this. I have learned so many things, and all just because of this project.

What can I do?

As usual there are quite a few options among everyone can chose. Stay with us, have a good time, and increase your knowledge. This is the easiest thing to do, and everyone can and should do it.

If you do not have time for more but want to help, you can help funding the foundation. Click the heart, give a little, or give more, whatever you like. Turning the private foundation into a legal body will require legal consulting (*ouch*).

If you like to get work done, we have something for you, too. We are translating the founding documentation to English currently, and I intend to work out the final version on our Wiki in a community process.

Should you prefer even more work, there of course is and always will be.

What is going to happen next?

First, I would love to hear what you think about this. Is the sheep crazy? Am I to idealistic about this? Is this bullshit?

If the community does like the idea of having a legal body taking care of the project and its long term existence, I'll publish the translated founding documents, and we can continue with the legal work.

Voice your opinion!

This is it for today. I am looking forward to your input. Criticism, too.

With kind regards,

TheLuda (sheep)

[Toinan67]

I have learned so many things, and all just because of this project.

This should be MaNGOS motto.

I've learned so many things too...

I strongly support this idea of creating a legal body around MaNGOS. Legal issues have always created debates inside and outside the community, and today what you plan to do might end those debates. I have absolutely no knowledge is legal stuff, I don't know if your plan is even possible, but I really think this could be a great improvement.

However I have a few questions :

- what would this "legal body" be actually?

- what will we have to do to be "protected" inside this legal body ? About that, I'm thinking of some "bad" people who might use this legal body to justify their unauthorized use of MaNGOS...

Is something like that going to be a problem?

- you were talking about a "founding documentation".... I can't find it at the moment, neither on the index, nor on the wiki

Anyway, since my arrival I'm amazed by what this community can achieve. There are a lot of very talented and interesting people around here, Vladimir, laise, Lynx3d, NoFantasy, TOM_RUS, Ambal, faramir118, qsa, Schmoo, zergtmn, and everyone else... (the sheep included )

I'm thankful to all of them to be a part of this project!

MaNGOS should be a citizenship.

[TheLuda]

- what would this "legal body" be actually?

The legal body would actually be a non-profit organization, much like the Apache Software Foundation, or similar solutions. It would be registered in Europe, to make sure we would fall under the European, liberal jurisdiction.

The foundation could - do to its legal status - e.g. engage in bigger projects. I am thinking about stuff like European user / developer meeting. Since I have been working in non-profit organizations almost all of my life, I have pretty good connections. It is not too hard to get some sponsoring for this, and IMHO the purpose of unhindered learning is worth the effort. I have seen and experienced myself what value the chance to learn means, to know for sure how important this is.

- what will we have to do to be "protected" inside this legal body ? About that, I'm thinking of some "bad" people who might use this legal body to justify their unauthorized use of MaNGOS...

The foundation would have authority over mangos and it would have the rights, and would have the ability to ensure nobody does bad things with our stuff.

- you were talking about a "founding documentation".... I can't find it at the moment, neither on the index, nor on the wiki

I have been dealing with this foundation thing for almost two years now, mostly due to the fact that the legal groundwork for a real non-profit foundation was not possible without a damn lot of research, and quite a bit if paid legal advice. Sadly founding a non-profit organization is not as simple as it could be, and I had high hopes for the European Community creating a law that would have allowed for a much easier process. As mentioned above, I am through the counselling with a lawyer, now I translate the documents to English, and will put them on the Wiki very soon, next days.

In the end I have to be honest: I am not just doing this for the good cause. Yes, one of my goals behind this is to ensure that this good thing will last for a long time, but the other goal is to create the chance for some meet and greet, make it possible to legally have the same good stuff other open source projects have. Do I hear mangos camp or something like that? Dunno, getting sponsored travelling for the development team to have a yearly pizza and beer camp would work, too

[TheLuda]

Of course, if this all is insane, and the community thinks it sucks big time, I'll just drop the idea. Just wanted to mention that.

[vladex]

This is one for the best communitys ever founded ,i was for a long time in the arc and trinity one but here was the place i was looking for, a place for learning .

In this case "Way to go Mangos Community!!":D:D

[Curious]

I have a question about the legal part, if mangos create his organisation, would this mean than we we'll have to become member of it ? And in order to be member wouldn't we have to decline our real identity ?

[Auntie Mangos]

Not really. Take Apache as an example. Apache Software Foundation provides the infrastructure and more to the project, and thats it. Everybody can still download Apache, submit patches, whatever and still be anonymous.

Difference is: there is a legal entity responsible for the project then. For the user nothing changes. It just adds the chance for the project to spread the ideals for which mangos stands. It *may* be political a tiny bit

[Damnit]

I think this is wonderful.. Starting from nothing more than.. let's make a wow server so we can play ourselves to this... is just amazing! This will truly make MaNGOS stand out.. and not be considered just another regular project that has no hopes

[cyberium]

I think why not but :

- It's not free, you will have to found necessary money.

- There is lot of work to manage fundation this will take time to at least one man every week.

- All kind of protection you talk about need olso money to be achieved.

- You have to be sure to not enter in the bad cycle where the money needed will affect some guidline of this fundation.

- You have to give some work to other trustworthy person to avoid any "fatigue".

...

and probably some other point...

[TheLuda]

- It's not free, you will have to found necessary money.

I have been investing money into this since 2005, just because I love the idea, and let alone seeing the progress and knowledge shown by the team is worth it. And I will surely continue to do so.

- There is lot of work to manage fundation this will take time to at least one man every week

I am already working ~ 15 hours per week to do email support and keep the site running, plus a few other things. It's acceptable, and since my wife is no longer in cancer treatment, I have more time to do all this.

- All kind of protection you talk about need olso money to be achieved.

- You have to be sure to not enter in the bad cycle where the money needed will affect some guidline of this fundation.

- You have to give some work to other trustworthy person to avoid any "fatigue".

That is why I am focusing on the aspect of unhindered learning as human rights. I will invest what is needed into this, because I think it is worth all this and more.

[TheLuda]

- It's not free, you will have to found necessary money.

I have been investing money into this since 2005, just because I love the idea, and let alone seeing the progress and knowledge shown by the team is worth it. And I will surely continue to do so.

- There is lot of work to manage fundation this will take time to at least one man every week

I am already working ~ 15 hours per week to do email support and keep the site running, plus a few other things. It's acceptable, and since my wife is no longer in cancer treatment, I have more time to do all this.

- All kind of protection you talk about need olso money to be achieved.

- You have to be sure to not enter in the bad cycle where the money needed will affect some guidline of this fundation.

- You have to give some work to other trustworthy person to avoid any "fatigue".

That is why I am focusing on the aspect of unhindered learning as human rights. I will invest what is needed into this, because I think it is worth all this and more.

[Toinan67]

- It's not free, you will have to found necessary money.

I have been investing money into this since 2005, just because I love the idea, and let alone seeing the progress and knowledge shown by the team is worth it. And I will surely continue to do so.

Do you already have an idea of the money needed?

This will truly make MaNGOS stand out..

Definitely.

[TheLuda]

Do you already have an idea of the money needed?

Not yet. I am working on figuring this out. The law just states the initial capital for a foundation needs to be sufficient for it to fulfill the purpose of the foundation. A bit spongy I'd say. The local authorities do judge on this.

This will truly make MaNGOS stand out.

It already does, mostly due to the amazing creativity and abilities shown of. Look at all the great developer patches done the last months. Amazing is the word.

[Toinan67]

I'd like to hear some comments from the devs themself : what do they think of all this? I mean, they're the heart of MaNGOS, they make it go further every day with new patches.

This is a big big step for this community, I think devs should give us their thoughts =)

[Unkle Nuke]

Many governments no longer exist to serve the people, rather, their multitudinous bureaucracies cater to corporate interests. This is an inevitable result of many companies and other financially interested parties being multi-million dollar contributors to political campaign funds. When our public servants only serve money, then the law is twisted to serve those who have wealth.

You will hear governments speak of the dangers certain knowledge brings to public safety while corporations lobby to have draconian and illegal laws passed to protect every penny they feel should be theirs. People are demonized and labeled criminals for opposing this evil. Your rights end where the politicians corruption and company coffers draw those ever expanding boundaries which swallow your freedoms.

I would love to see The Mangos Foundation grow into a juggernaut that carries millions of shouting voices in a tide that screams "NO! This will not stand!". Every single human has the right to expand their knowledge as far as humanly possible. To learn is to grow. To know is to make the world a better place for everyone.

Someone must make a stand, to draw the line against tyranny and greed...where we finally say, "This far and no further!"

[faramir118]

UnkleNuke, your sig kind of ruins that awesome speech

[Damnit]

Many governments no longer exist to serve the people, rather, their multitudinous bureaucracies cater to corporate interests. This is an inevitable result of many companies and other financially interested parties being multi-million dollar contributors to political campaign funds. When our public servants only serve money, then the law is twisted to serve those who have wealth.

You will hear governments speak of the dangers certain knowledge brings to public safety while corporations lobby to have draconian and illegal laws passed to protect every penny they feel should be theirs. People are demonized and labeled criminals for opposing this evil. Your rights end where the politicians corruption and company coffers draw those ever expanding boundaries which swallow your freedoms.

I would love to see The Mangos Foundation grow into a juggernaut that carries millions of shouting voices in a tide that screams "NO! This will not stand!". Every single human has the right to expand their knowledge as far as humanly possible. To learn is to grow. To know is to make the world a better place for everyone.

Someone must make a stand, to draw the line against tyranny and greed...where we finally say, "This far and no further!"

Have you been watching Zeitgeist?

[TheLuda]

To learn is to grow. To know is to make the world a better place for everyone.

Nicely expressed.

[Unkle Nuke]

Aside from a few classic Fritz Lang films and "Das Boot", I'm not a big fan of German cinema.

I love my country. We're mostly ordinary folk here like you'd find anywhere else. All of us, regardless of country, face the same daily troubles, have the same needs, and seek those things which make us happy.

Now, there has been some sanity restored to this mess in the U.S.A. The Fair Use Act was reinforced recently, allowing people to circumvent protection measures on media for the purpose of personal use and backup. People are allowed to monitor, store, and inspect all network traffic that passes through their computer and/or LAN. Also, reverse-engineering of software is permitted under very limited conditions, mainly for the purpose of a student learning.

MaNGOS brings all of us together as both students and instructors, to become a part of something bigger. It's not just about program code. It's about pushing the limits of our knowledge, to challenge us to grow and learn. Some entities would love nothing more than to bring an end to this in the name of protecting profits, those same ones who have made "intellectual property" into a bludgeon wielded with considerable force.

Yes, there are those who utilize MaNGOS to cater to the public, thereby risking the wrath of corporate lawyers and jurisprudence. However, you cannot blame the MaNGOS group for this any more than you can blame Einstein for the atomic bomb.

That's why TheLuda's statements struck a chord in me.

We are all part of a very good thing here. I would most certainly hate to see that ended out of blind ignorance or, worse yet, the stupidity of complacency. This man should be applauded for his efforts to bring a coherency and legal status to the idea of MaNGOS. Every one of us should support that ideal in whatever way we can, to ensure the dream will endure.

P.S. I like my sig. It's humorous and elegantly expresses the fact that my mind wanders down a hundred different paths every day. Sometimes, it even comes back. :lol:

[DaemonCantor]

Very Nicely put UnkleNuke, and as for myself like you, I do remember a time(now lost to the Stone Age) when software was freely given and used and if you couldn't find what you needed you made it yourself and usually gave it away as well but to have a computer to run it on was a couple thousand dollars. This was a time before the IBM PC 8088 and DOS...Now we call this Open Source and have a Licenses we have to abide by to keep the Wolves from the door called GPL!

Why did we allow a person to start charging us with a Gray Area of Law called Intellectual Property? A thought is a thought and Binary Code is just a Thought taken form but just as deletable and disregardful as a thought, or in other words has no hard medium like a chair or a table, so should we be paying to think? or should we charge everyone for our thoughts? This is where I've always stood up and stated in a loud voice NO! I will not pay to learn, expand, increase my knowledge but I will never give up learning!

[Toinan67]

The revolution is coming.

[TheLuda]

The matrix is out there.

[Unkle Nuke]

Now that, TheLuda, is far more profound and scary than words first make it appear to be.

lol?

[TheLuda]

You've pretty much set the theme with your comments, and I couldn't help to get this feeling. Like... it's all a big plan, to make us dumb with preventing us from gaining knowledge. Somewhere along those lines I looked over my back to see if there was an agent with sunglasses around.

Isn't it weird, how close movies and reality can be sometimes? The whole concept of knowledge and learning not being a human right smells just like a large conspiracy theory.

Anyway, let's do something against the issue, and make us heard.