mangos foundation - we are getting there

[DaemonCantor]

Yes Luda, I agree with you on watching for those people with Black Suits and Sun Glasses, but if you have trouble just call out for Neo and he'll do the Superman thingy to save the day!...I gather from what you've stated that you've been around SourceForge for a little while and you probably remember back to it's starting...I was around then too you just don't recall me, because I went by a different name back then which I've had to retire( I won't get into that publicly) and I kinda hid in the background because of creative rights contracts.....Main reason I hate Corporate Idealism. But I do support you on this issue and will do my absolute best to keep learning but I can't promise to keep my BIG MOUTH SHUT! lol....

[Unkle Nuke]

TheLuda has a point. Let's not get too distracted with spinning tales of conspiracy.

We know what the MaNGOS Foundation is up against. What's needed is the ability to push it out of the way. This is where those legal protections come into play. Eventually, political protection may be needed, but baby steps first, then walking and running.

The Free Software Foundation may be a good model to follow in setting up a framework. They have successfully withstood lawsuits from the likes of Microsoft, IBM, and others. Perhaps a few well-written e-mails to them might yield some good advice or direct help.

[Shin Darth]

I have learned so many things, and all just because of this project.

Confirmed, for me too.

[Kuza]

TheLuda has a point. Let's not get too distracted with spinning tales of conspiracy.

We know what the MaNGOS Foundation is up against. What's needed is the ability to push it out of the way. This is where those legal protections come into play. Eventually, political protection may be needed, but baby steps first, then walking and running.

The Free Software Foundation may be a good model to follow in setting up a framework. They have successfully withstood lawsuits from the likes of Microsoft, IBM, and others. Perhaps a few well-written e-mails to them might yield some good advice or direct help.

The man has the point.

[Skirnir]

If you are a European, and a student, you are lucky. You could even legally reverse engineer the official game client using disassembly tools, and other utilities.

First, I would love to hear what you think about this. Is the sheep crazy? Am I to idealistic about this? Is this bullshit?

I was thinking about the idea of a mangos foundation and lately (mainly since I wont ever use paypal and therefore can't donate money). For Germany it currently doesn't look like it's anyhow realistic. A month ago I didn't feel like this, but if you read current Sony PS3 news, about a guy hacking the console and his problems with our beloved legal system, that is somewhat shocking. First Sony got this "GeoHot" guy stateside. Felt like the hero of the internet and now faces the Digital Millennium Copyright Act and "old Europe" was like "lol USA, can't happen to us".

Last week a guy in Germany "Graf Chokolo" had some unpleasant police visit. They executed a search warrant and took at least his computer and PS3. He's facing a penalty of 1 million dollars and his crime is/was trying to restore/improve the "Other OS" function at PS3. This would allow you to run a Linux at your console, for watching youtube, or mkv-files etc. In case he would be able to completely restore this function (or makes it available to PS3 slim users) this would cost Sony ~nothing. During his research he has to get past the Sony built in security system, since the failoverflow guys and GeoHot have opened this box of Pandora Sony reacts like a elephant on ecstasy. So far no trouble for MaNGOS foundation, but if a German court (well Hamburg is known for their industry friendly judgments) agrees to make a house search (you can say about our legal system a bunch of stuff, but the security of our personal house is sacred) for this and accepts this penalty, I highly doubt they and Blizzs lawyers would turn a def eye to a MaNGOS foundation in Germany. I still have a bit hope left, that the judge finally declines the complain, but since they house searched this guy, it does not look that good.

Regards

Skirnir

PS: I'm no expert for German law nor do I know what has been done already to fulfill our goal towards a MaNGOS foundation, it's just what I feel like reading news lately.

[DasBlub]

i'm no law expert, but maybe you should consider creating that foundation in switzerland. from what i know, "stiftungen" and "sitzgesellschaften" and other organizations like that have a pretty secure system here. but you should definitely ask a lawyer, which is familiar with the swiss law, first.

the other place which you might consider would be cayman islands. normally those countries which are considered very good to hide your money are also those which can be considered very good when you want to create a bullet-proof organization (which doesn't mean any illegal organization, just an organization which has to fear getting put before a judge).

[Unkle Nuke]

So long as you have corporate money paying for the ambitions of those who would hold a public office, there really is no safe harbor.

The collaboration of governments with corporate interests is a type of corruption that ignores the law, so no law will protect you if it is decided your freedom is worth less in the balance. However, it is better to go down in defeat knowing you have been honorable and honest.

Regardless of what the laws are for any of those participating in the development of MaNGOS, so long as none officially linked to this project are violating intellectual property laws in their country, the MaNGOS foundation should have no reason to hide behind any flag. Being out in the open and obeying the law gives a legitimacy and protection of its own, where you can wage battle in the court of public opinion and the media if it comes to it. It is time a stand were made by at least some few so that these laws might change for the better.

Do we sit idly by and allow these matters to be decided for us, keeping our silence while the wagons begin taking more of us to the gallows every day?

[TheLuda]

I have been quite busy with the idea of going for a non-profit organization which works for the purpose of education without corporate barriers, and well, I can say it was a hell of a ride.

IMHO the primary goal and task for a foundation would be to establish education without corporate barriers as right, even better to get to a point where education itself becomes a human right, and thus bigger than any corporate interest at all.

In that I see the current projects and development as strong examples and good showcases for this. Why? Because our way works. See how many developers have made gigantic strides forward in terms of knowledge here, and I am sure it pays off for their employers, too.

But the sad truth is that whatever organization it shall become, it does require funding. A real legal body costs money, and we are not talking about a few hundred Euros, its going to be a few thousand with probably five digits. I have no idea how we could make that happen. We are not something famous, like LibreOffice, and we're not really good at public relations either

Whatever, I want to make this thing happen. This may be something good to leave for our children, and I am open for suggestions.

Oh, and BTW: Germany, Switzerland, all is fine, the primary reason for Europe is that the European Community has a law that gives students work priority over corporate interests in research. Thats a good starting point

[Unkle Nuke]

A starting point will be in deciding if The MaNGOS Foundation will be a non-profit entity. There are certain legal and tax exemptions for an organization of this type in many countries, but you have a more strict accountability for how funds are spent.

As for financing, you can look to the Electronic Frontier Foundation and Free Software Foundation for ideas on what sort of financial model you wish to adopt. Until TMF can grow to the point that it has enough donations to cover its costs, a mixed approach of donations and sponsors may be the easiest way to get the wheels turning. Of course, you'd want to avoid the pitfalls of relying on commercial sponsorship for primary funds. Look at what has become of MySQL and other open-source projects that rely too much on the whim of corporate money. Businessmen have the habit of feeling their dollars buy them a say in how things are decided.

Being open-source, MaNGOS may benefit greatly in seeking some advice from the FSF, since they do present themselves as the champion of the open-source movement. Linus Torvalds has most certainly benefited from his association with them.

The biggest question any potential mentor, sponsor, or contributor will ask is, "What does The MaNGOS Foundation stand for?". You'd better be prepared to answer that in a single, concise sentence. Then you can elaborate further if they like the answer. Clear direction and plainly-spoken goals are what is needed to persuade others to back the organization you propose. Draw up a Mission Statement and a Charter, outlining the goals, philosophy, and methods of The MaNGOS Foundation. Having it written down in black-and-white will do much to impress upon people that you have your act together and know what you're about.

[TheLuda]

Mission statement:

The MaNGOS foundation's purpose is to establish the freedom of education as a human right.

Education is about the only resource available which can and should be given to everyone in need without making compromises for corporate interests.

We do believe that freedom of education is as important as freedom of speech, and that freedom of speech is not sufficient without freedom of education. One can not exist without the other.

... which sums up the sheep's feelings and opinion in this. Does that sound like a mission statement that is worth to pursue?

[Unkle Nuke]

Elegantly stated, good sir. Such a philosophy is most certainly worthy for everyone to pursue.

With "freedom of education" being the theme, that is a broad category to encompass. I take it this means The MaNGOS Project represents only a small portion of what The MaNGOS Foundation wishes to promote?

[DasBlub]

another important question to me is: should that organization even be called "MaNGOS Foundation"? Maybe we should leave the name "MaNGOS" out, as the goal/mission/purpose of that foundation is more, than what MaNGOS stands for. MaNGOS is "only" about writing an MMO(RPG) server software, while the foundation is about promoting a new human right.

maybe you should also have a look at this: http://www.right-to-education.org/ (it's what i found after searching for 'human right education' on google)

[Unkle Nuke]

Right To Education's goals are aimed at what they consider "minorities"... refugees, women, the disabled, homosexuals, lesbians, and political dissidents... mostly in 3rd-world countries. Don't you just love how charities for the oppressed use language that marginalizes the people they claim to be helping? Isn't it sufficient reason for helping them that these "minorities" are human beings?

I believe The Sheep sees The MaNGOS Foundation fostering the "right to education" as a basic human right, much like the founders of my own country believed people should be guaranteed protections by The Bill Of Rights, regardless of race, creed, or status. Perhaps it might be better to describe the core TMF philosophy as "The Right To Knowledge" for every living person on this planet, without regard to their status or domain. The reasoning behind this idea being the terrible truth where intellectual freedom is under a far greater threat, in the "civilized" countries, thanks to copyright abuses and draconian intellectual property laws.

After all, how can we truly educate those "minorities", whom Right To Education claims to represent, when we are not allowed to fully educate one another? That has been the driving force behind The MaNGOS Project, educating ourselves while learning from each other without censure. It is that legacy of this project which makes "MaNGOS" equally fitting as the name for the foundation which formalizes and promotes this philosophy.

[Auntie Mangos]

Maybe we should leave the name "MaNGOS" out, as the goal/mission/purpose of that foundation is more, than what MaNGOS stands for.

At first look, it may be only server software. But I think what really defines MaNGOS is that we constantly over five years adhered to principles of valuing education above everything else.

MaNGOS may be legacy, but IMHO it is worth to keep. Dropping MaNGOS from the foundation would be like dropping Mozilla from the Mozilla foundation. MaNGOS always was and will be more than just the game server, since it already started out to be more like another server project. And that is something to be proud of in these days.

I believe The Sheep sees The MaNGOS Foundation fostering the "right to education" as a basic human right, much like the founders of my own country believed people should be guaranteed protections by The Bill Of Rights, regardless of race, creed, or status.

This and our history is the reason, why a MaNGOS foundation could be as great as a Mozilla Foundation, and probably even better.

Knowledge and education is probably the only resource which is existent without natural limits, but it is limited by law and companies. Removing those limits is something that our children will benefit from.

[Unkle Nuke]

If it is open for discussion, then what's the next step or is this something you wish to do on your own, TheLuda?

If this is a community effort, then perhaps inquiries can be made to the FSF, EFF, and similar organizations for advice and support.

[TheLuda]

Of course, this is open for discussion, and if someone wants to get involved in this stuff, feel free to do so.

Technically it is impossible to do this solo anyway. Any legal body requires a few real persons to reveal their identities and get tied into this, and besides I would prefer to have a few more people working on this.

The sheep would prefer a crowd of sheep to being a lonely sheep

[caeruleaus]

a herd of sheep can take on a lone wolf.

[rumpilstilskin]

Hello here^^

Of course I am a new seed here^^ Nevertheless I'v beeing following your discusion here and I would like to give my opinion.

I could be mistaking but I fell this is a wrong path for this nice community.

What are you talking about? Universal right for education or knowledge? A very repectable fight, but like mentioned here, this combat is justified to help populations that have this right denied. We are talking of people how are either under a dictator government or/and are minoritys that see there basic rights ignored.

Now for these populations, right for education and knowledge relates for what is considered like universal knowledge in our democraties : going to school, learning how to read and count… going to high school… All bases for emancipation and free jugement…

In no case this combat is about creating a MMORPG server.

And unless I am wrong, this is what we are talking about day after day here^^

Of cours through this project, many here, expand there knowledge concerning programming, and this is with no doubt the most important of the Mangos project. And also the more fun^^ Learning how to use all those tools^^

But, in my point of vue, you cannot built a fondation project on ambiguity.

Either you built your fondation project clearly on the idea that creating a MMORPG server is a personal creation that cant be restrained by legal copyrights of editors, or you have to admit that at a point one might tell you « Ok you want to work for the right of knowledge and education, very well, you will have my money and support… but the day you start working without using creations of other without legal authorisations. »

If your idea is to fight against intellectual propriety, id'say forget it. The idea of a total opened and free world is another face of oppresion. Nothing privat? Nothing protected by law? In my point of vue a nightmare!… Sounds like… back in the USSR !

I would rather start working on the idea that what we are doing here belongs to us. That the WoW univers is a « material » like another. Creators have always « used » other creations to creat. If this wasn't true we should start a legal procedure against Blizzard for using character of the Wizard of Oz in Karazan… among so many other references…

But at the buttom line, I am not sure the project of a foundation is a good idea. Blizz has other things to doo rather than launching legal procedures against a few groups of programmers here and there - it would be by the way a very bad operation in termes of image - … but the day one of these groupe comes public with the project to legalize it's activity… you better be ready for it!

I remember of this idea coming from the US in the 80's : "Small is Beautiful"

I strongly believe that Small Is Beautiful !

[caeruleaus]

It's the right for free exchange of knowledge. Not education in the sense of schools and whatnot but education in the sense that everyone should share what they know to the world. If everyone retains their ideas, then nothing new would ever happen because you cannot expand on it.

[rumpilstilskin]

I dont know that this right to share your knowledege is denied^^

[Auntie Mangos]

I dont know that this right to share your knowledege is denied^^

Well, actually it is. Legally hardly anyone is allowed to be here. Well, except for a few students from Eastern Europe, and IT students from Central Europe. Everyone else currently is not legally active on these forums. There is a few more exceptions, but nothing big

If you want to learn how things MaNGOS work, currently a very limited population of this earth does this legally.

[Unkle Nuke]

I'm not so sure everyone outside the domains you've named are here illegally, MCP. Even in the United States, it is legal to reverse-engineer the game client so long as you follow certain strictures. Compiling or modifying the MaNGOS code should be acceptable nearly everywhere.

Are these members in violation of the publisher's EULA and Terms Of Service? Most likely, but such contracts are rarely enforceable in their entirety. Software publishers tend to word those documents with plenty of lawyer-speak and adhere to the rule of "whatever we can get away with" rather than what is truly permissible by law. At worst, you are more likely to find yourself banned from their services than you are to come standing before a magistrate or judge.

Legal threats are waved about like bludgeons because these companies know most individuals will crumple in fear and give way to all manner of outrageous demands. It is this easy because many people are ignorant of the law or have an incorrect understanding of it.

The Free Software Foundation and Electronic Frontier Foundation have published several articles concerning the law and activities such as might be engaged in here with some members. Although these documents do primarily deal with U.S. law, it is a good starting point for anyone wishing to research these issues.

MaNGOS is a learning project. I suggest those who wish to represent the MaNGOS Foundation engage in learning the laws of their country, so you may have a firm grasp of the tools you must wield in its defense. Lack of information can lead to misinformation, inspiring doubt and fear, eroding the resolve and spirit of those who would take part or make a stand.

[rumpilstilskin]

I am sorry MCP if my contribution here gave the impression that I minor the purpose of this project. My aim was only to try to clarify things here. Right to education seems - to me - not precise enough to define the mangos project. It's a little bit vague. What education project ant towards what population could be legitimat questions.

And as explained very clearly by Unkle, I do thing that we have legal bases - in certain limits - tu continue peacefully this nice project^^

[Auntie Mangos]

First and foremost: any contribution is welcome. We're not like other projects where criticism leads to forums shut down

Right to education seems - to me - not precise enough to define the mangos project.

Perhaps the reasoning for the foundation was not properly explained. The MaNGOS project is all fine, and will not change. It's good, and keeps getting better (obviously).

The foundation is supposed to help with a bigger issue. Currently what we do here is on many legal edges, and it should not be. Sure there is some legal ground for us, but there also is many laws that point in different directions, and this shouldn't be the case.

[Unkle Nuke]

After a storm of posts, this thread has gone so very quiet for far too long.

What has become of The MaNGOS Foundation and this discussion? Where do things stand at this point?

I haven't done very well as a programmer, since I was inspired by members here last year to work on Outdoor PvP. Learning C++ has been painfully slow, due to real life and a series of hardware failures.

But I still feel a great interest and passion for the server project and the ideals of MaNGOS, even years after joining this community.

How can I help, TheLuda?