Trinity developers

[arrai]

I just had a conversation with X-Savior about taking over some developers from trinity

<X-Savior_Away> what would you think if TDB and TC developers back over to UDB and Mangos respectively to create a united team once again

<X-Savior_Away> there is no one who caused this split left

<arrai> what is TDB and TC? oO

<X-Savior_Away> Trinity

<X-Savior_Away> Trinity Database

<X-Savior_Away> and Trinity Core

<X-Savior_Away> Myself and my devs are ready to return to working on UDB as a team

<X-Savior_Away> and the core devs will go to work on Mangos

<X-Savior_Away> we are tired of this game

<arrai> nice, I didn't get the reason for the split in the first place :-)

<X-Savior_Away> it was Brian and a few others 9All of whom have long tgone)

<X-Savior_Away> are long gone

<X-Savior_Away> so there is the rest of us who feel the same way

<X-Savior_Away> no one has any hard feelings

<X-Savior_Away> and people on both sides are asking... what is the point of this

<X-Savior_Away> and are favorable to a united team once gaain

<X-Savior_Away> *again

<X-Savior_Away> how do you feel about this?

<arrai> I support that effort - together we can achieve more :-)

<X-Savior_Away> well on Mangos side

<X-Savior_Away> We wpul;d be looking to have Megamage and Trullyone return

<X-Savior_Away> and Raczman would be looking to learn form you guys and work on Mangos

<X-Savior_Away> Also Paradox would most likely return

<X-Savior_Away> how willing are you to accept a couple people into Mangos Dev team?

<X-Savior_Away> Megamage / Paradox should be

<X-Savior_Away> and if trullyone does come he is a GENIOUS

<X-Savior_Away> he really belongs with you guys

<X-Savior_Away> would you promote these 3 should they come to Mangos and leave trinity?

<arrai> I only know Megamage, he did some reasonable commits, so I agree. I have never heard anything of the others, so I have no idea

<X-Savior_Away> Paradox has been the AHBot designer

<X-Savior_Away> and know the core inside and out

<X-Savior_Away> he is very good and has been around for a LONG time

<X-Savior_Away> all these guys know they will need to code at Mangos standards

<X-Savior_Away>

<X-Savior_Away> if you trust me I trust these individuals

<X-Savior_Away> Trullyone designed a far superior waypoint system for Trinity

<arrai> Mangos needs more developers and they might be a nice addition, but I'm not the only one deciding this

<X-Savior_Away> yes, please speak to Vlad if you can

<X-Savior_Away> I want t make sure they have a good home at Mangos before we do anything or make anything opublic

<X-Savior_Away> *public

<X-Savior_Away> I am going to urge Trullyone to develop the Waypoint system for Mangos

<X-Savior_Away> becuase it allows for 100% Blizz-Like Waypoint scripting

<X-Savior_Away> als also NPC Formations

<X-Savior_Away> I have been working with it and it is incredible

<arrai> Did you talk to those 3 about it?

<X-Savior_Away> like we used to have

<X-Savior_Away> not recently

<X-Savior_Away> b ut I know they will go for it

<X-Savior_Away> Megamage and I talked a long time ago about it

<X-Savior_Away> they would like to but they are scared of you guys

<arrai> lol

<X-Savior_Away> they think they will just be shoved tot he side and ignored

<X-Savior_Away> I want them to have a good chance to prove themselves and contribute to Mangos

<X-Savior_Away> just like my DB guys will do the same for UDB

<X-Savior_Away> :-)

<X-Savior_Away> together we are all stonger

<arrai> :-)

<arrai> so I talked to vladimir and his point is that he doesn't know them. If they choose to come back to mangos they had to take the "normal" path for becoming a dev

<X-Savior> :-(

<X-Savior> WHat about Megamage

<X-Savior> and Paradox

<X-Savior> they are very important

<X-Savior>

<arrai> He remembered megamage, he contributed patches before trinity

<X-Savior> yes

<X-Savior> Paradox has come a LONG way

<X-Savior> he will be working to get AHBot ready for the core too

<X-Savior> he is close to finish rewriting the entire code

<X-Savior> ad adding new features that are important

<X-Savior> and

<X-Savior> will you guys give them a chance?

<X-Savior> give them dev status

<X-Savior> and if they do not perform

<X-Savior> then demote them

<X-Savior> but at least they had their opportunity

<X-Savior> would this be acceptable?

<arrai> I'm not in the position to speak for every mangos developer, but I will post it in dev mangos section

<X-Savior> thank you plkease do that and let me know. Thank You

<X-Savior> I almost forgot

<X-Savior> QAston

<X-Savior> he will move over too most likely

<X-Savior> is he welcome?

<arrai> don't know him either :-)

<X-Savior> he is a HUGE developer

<X-Savior> as good (If not better) then Megamage

<X-Savior>

<X-Savior> he has been around the scene for years

So what do you think about it? I'm thinking similar as Savior - if we adept them we can still demot them. Maybe give them a chance as "trial developers"?

[Wyk3d]

What I don't understand is, if these people do want to make their contribution here, why are they not posting their work (well except for Raczman's latest patch) ? Even if they do get added to the team we can't have them bulk-committing their stuff for a while, those changes need to be rediscussed. They will probably have to post some things as patches and document them to get everyone else up to speed as well as interact with us on IRC to iron things out and they don't need a dev status to do so. Sure, you can always revert commits but it's better to prevent having to do that. Maybe they could commit some small changes faster if they get a dev status right away but it's the big changes that they really need clearance for, besides the definitions of small and big are very fuzzy .. We need to learn how they think and how they make their decisions to correct any problems, misunderstandings.

[freghar]

I'm no dev, I really don't know why anyone gave me the green name, if it was due to git push access or so ... but I'd like to add an idea;

Maybe it would be better to let them have their separate repositories on github (forks) and probably just "grant" them a bit more attention than to common patches. That way they can make something, possibly test it and ask you to pull (ie. via IRC). You would just pull and take a quick look over the diff and if everything's okay, simply push ... it takes few seconds and about ~1-2 minutes for slightly larger patches ..

Even if you trust them and don't want to review anything, it's a 10-20 second work (on the cmdline), almost no point in giving them direct push access if you don't want to --

edit: just to explain the point - there's no need to have the "dev" sign for a common developer to be able to make commits and publish them to the official mangos repo .. (except for the so-called honor)

[Derex]

freghar - as usually with the best idea that matches the philosophy of git

[Wyk3d]

Well obviously they should put their stuff on git so we can access it easily and maybe they can be given a bit more attention but that's not the point I think. You did propose a good solution for the case when a quick look over the code is enough (when the trust and problem complexity ratio is just right), but there are a number of problems. Clearly in a lot of cases that is not enough, they may not always know when those cases are and they may even produce the right code for the wrong reasons. I think the most important thing is to get to know THEM and NOT just their code. This is why I said they should post on the forum or come to IRC and describe the stuff they do in detail. Having things documented is good anyway, but most importantly it allows to find out how they think.

[arrai]

In order to discuss things with these guys, there will be an IRC meeting:

rizon.net#reunification at 6pm GMT tomorrow

To avoid the confusion I had with these timezones there is a nice link with a relative time display

http://www.timeanddate.com/counters/customcounter.html?day=30&month=04&year=2009&hour=6pm&min=0&sec=0&p0=0

It would be nice if as much as possible of you could participate, only then we can make obligatory descisions

[VladimirMangos]

I agree with Wyk3d point as usual

1) I not fully agree with term "re-union": in fact all pointed ppl not has been formally mangos devs in past.

And mangos team in fact not broken by parts (except small time period maybe when trinity created).

And then i not see why take part in unfriedly fork make they good for _join_ to team.

2) If talk about team memebership important not only code skills but also trust. Work in trinity with known position to mangos project can't imrpove trust. I not have pre-made position that thay not trusted and period, or that they must do someting special to return trust. But i think exist normal way how devs join to mangos team: good patches, good discussion, help to project, show that adding push rights will not create problems for project.

3) We have hard times sometime or make wrong notes and comments, And this harm team climate in some level sometime. I worry specially about Paradox. He show often very unfriendly reactions at forums. In fact he always near to ban state.

4) I not look deeply at current megamage patches but remember that megamege always prefer fast hack solutions.

And some patches that has been add aftre megameage move to trinity also req. rewriting to correct state before adding to mangos (ignore cheating possibilities for example).

5) Not have any info to say about Trullyone and Raczman code skills.

I think they join to fork just show that they not so want cooperation when his patches not ready by some reason to repo. Anyway i not have anything personally against they just as result his trinity development. But i think need normal way proof that they want help to mangos.

Help to mangos not required explicit access to mangos repo push rights. Also with GIT author have honor for commit in any case and this more explicit show honor in comparison any team membarship. Membership only speedup things when commiter can trusted.

[added]I understand why they can want join to team. Other case will look like trinity team fail. But is this our problem? We (as team) not fork from trinity, we not attempt harm trinity, we just continue development mangos. This is trinity fork, attempt harm, amd has been something like mangos repack mostly.

[added2]About git use for patches: At personal expirience vote by both hands for patches in git repo. Lot simple review.

[Derex]

I will try to be online tomorow meeting, since me and Neo2003 were the bad guys when trinity was created. I can explain some things.

[freghar]

I think the most important thing is to get to know THEM and NOT just their code.

Sure, I fully agree on that, that was also the point in my post, maybe it wasn't clear enough. They can have their repositories with you as the "gateway" to the main repo, while talking things over on IRC .. so that you can concentrate on the discussion and code snippets rather than applying their diffs, etc.

Anyway - I'll try to be available on the meeting time, so if you want me there, it should be no problem.

[VladimirMangos]

I'm no dev, I really don't know why anyone gave me the green name

Are you sure? I think too later make recoloring attempts.

[freghar]

Are you sure? I think too later make recoloring attempts.

I remember that TheLuda gave me it so I can post in locked announcement topics and move non-git stuff out of SCM section ..

But as I said in the previous post - I'm not even active as NoFantasy when it comes to code changes, so feel free to make my name pink or so

[Senpuria]

Does anybody actually have the access to change user group other than Daniel?

[VladimirMangos]

I think no.

[Senpuria]

=/ Sucks. They wouldn't even be able to post their work in the management section. I guess they could email it etc..but it would help if Daniel was around.

[VladimirMangos]

Who post? trinity devs? I strongly against access to devs section not for team members. Nothing here intresting for they.

[davemm]

well, i think Vladimir has the right way to handle this. I dont see the need for anyone to think that they can only help if they have green name.

If people fix things, post them in the forum, then the Dev's can see what these peoples work is like, then maybe at a later date, when they have "proved" themselves, then they can talk about being "official" mangos devs.

Its not just about someones skill, its also about trust, and about people having the right view of what mangos is and where it is heading.

I also agree with the comments made about Paradox, this guy has a serious attitude problem, Im sure he has some skill in what he does, but he has no idea about how to talk and interact with other people (you should see some of the PM's ive had from him )

As for access to change usergroups etc, ive sent TheLuda a PM, just incase he happens to check them at sometime, basically asking if someone else could be given access to change groups, IP ban and some other useful things.

Dave

[TheLuda]

Hi,

I am back and alive. The cancer therapy my wife has been through now is over.

@freghar: you do have the green name, as you do contribute to the development of MaNGOS. Development is not only about code submissions but also about providing knowledge and even philosophical insights. Giving good advice and support for Git to both users and developers - IMHO - is worth the green tag.

[davemm]

welcome back! hope everything is going ok.

We tried to keep the place clean while you were away!

[Senpuria]

Hey Daniel, its been a long time bro. Good to see you back mate, glad to hear everything is okay also.

[freghar]

Hi.

@freghar: you do have the green name, as you do contribute to the development of MaNGOS. Development is not only about code submissions but also about providing knowledge and even philosophical insights. Giving good advice and support for Git to both users and developers - IMHO - is worth the green tag.

... if you say so ..

@ my promised article I mailed you about: As I told Vladimir on IRC, it got deleted somehow on my HDD, I had it both written and corrected + did defragmentation that day... Furthermore I don't have the mood of writing it again, not anytime soon, so perhaps some other time, sorry ..

edit: I wonder .. what happened with buildbot?

[VladimirMangos]

Hey Daniel, its been a long time bro. Good to see you back mate, glad to hear everything is okay also.

Indeed.

If back to original topic i can post irc logs from past duscussion

rizon.net#reunification

to make topic complete. For team members not take part in it.

Is this need?

[TheLuda]

I wonder .. what happened with buildbot?

It seems like an update on the machine disabled the automatic start of it. I'll reenable the bot today.