Mangos GUI ??

[orignboy]

Just been looking around, and I know that people program in what they know and what interests them. But would it not be more practical to run something like Mangos GUI as a web based app?

This would give easier access to administration of a server by many people and also could be combined with a registration page for adding accounts to the servers.

[davemm]

what is mangos GUI?

its nothing to do with mangos project, if its a project written by a mangos user, then best to ask them!

[Senpuria]

Why would you need an account registration page for a private server?

[orignboy]

For people to apply to play on your server, unless you are going to give people permission to make accounts. Only a thought, registration/account creation for admins, web based would easily let many people look after a server without, playing on command lines or digging around in db's

[orignboy]

what is mangos GUI?

its nothing to do with mangos project, if its a project written by a mangos user, then best to ask them!

It was just a general observation on a *sticky* you have at the top of this forum, which would imply that it is at least had something to do with the project.

But on the subject, if the project is seeking adoption by a large user base would it not make sence to be looking at ways to easily manage, users account, server settings, registration etc of what is after all a very complex bit of software.

Having somthing like this as part of the project, may even save a lot of the silly post I am seeing on these forums.

Not everyone is a programer, or wants to be playing with command lines.

[jdguzman]

i think what they were trying to get at is the fact that mangos is NOT supposed to be used to host public servers. having an administration page that is available to the general public would make your server public and make it illegal.

as the person that took on the gui project there is no intention of making it web based. there are already tools out there that do account managment on a web based platform. the gui was meant for the sys admin that doesn't want to deal with the command prompt and that is how it will remain.

[davemm]

It was just a general observation on a *sticky* you have at the top of this forum, which would imply that it is at least had something to do with the project.

But on the subject, if the project is seeking adoption by a large user base would it not make sence to be looking at ways to easily manage, users account, server settings, registration etc of what is after all a very complex bit of software.

Having somthing like this as part of the project, may even save a lot of the silly post I am seeing on these forums.

Not everyone is a programer, or wants to be playing with command lines.

Mangos is an educational project. Using it you will learn about C++, SQL, netwoking etcetc.

If everything was packaged as a "1-click" system, what would you learn?

Mangos was (and is) not ever intended for use to host public servers, doing so is illegal.

[orignboy]

hummm, I see this project is very confused, about what it is.

Question is a private server with 100+ people on it not public ?

Is a list of private servers not a public list ?

You don't fool anyone. Anyway, I shall keep any php scripts that I develop for my private server to myself if that is the feeling in the community.

I'm sure that my education will be enriched in the process.

and inside my LAN on my private server will all have an easy life, playing the game more.

[davemm]

a public server is server with a publically accessible signup page.

a private server is for you, your fiends/family etcetc.

as you would see if you bothered to look around the forum, there is NO lists of servers, there is NO server advertising of any sort.

ANYONE running a server that is open to the public is BREAKING THE LAW. It really is THAT SIMPLE.

No one is confused, no one is trying to fool anyone.

These are the FACTS.

[orignboy]

ok dave you win. I have read and I do have an interest in the development of software such as this.

But if its just to learn, think I would rather pay to play, like most people, and be part of a larger comunity.

oh and am such bizzard has a few things to say about how legal reverse engineering there software is in the first place and using ad.exe to extract maps from there software too.

So what was just a questions about, a better/different way to do things. Is now just about a mod sitting on his high horse. I hope you feel good about that. Dave

[subhuman_bob]

oh and am such bizzard has a few things to say about how legal reverse engineering there software is in the first place and using ad.exe to extract maps from there software too.

I can't think of any court case regarding technology reverse engineering that resulted in a win for the plaintiff. The most obvious example would be AMD selling CPUs that execute Intel's x86 instruction code. During the 80's and 90's, Intel failed many times in preventing the sale of "clone" CPUs from AMD, Cyrix, NexGen and other sources.

Ever since 1951, when Huffman Coding first came about, it has been completely legal to compress or uncompress data. The MPQ files are compressed files, AD.EXE decompresses them- nothing more, nothing less.

So, we can sit here all week and bicker back and forth about if it's legal or not, or you can accept the fact that if a corporation thought MaNGOS was violating their copyright there is little doubt that legal action would be taken.

None has been taken, which should tell you something.

[ghoti]

I am pretty new here, but I've seen as much:

Mega-Servers with 1000+ populations that ask for money and use copywritten material on public wepages have been pursued by Blizzard.

Mangos (been around a long time and even mentioned on said mega-servers) is still around and never had to worry about "being shutdown by the man".

I'd be willing to bet the 47 cents to my name (I may be exaggerating, I recently bought some ice cream and that could be less) that Blizzard and Co. know full well of mangos and other such projects. I'd be willing to bet that's why they like to toy with things like spell id's and things of that nature - to make things "fun" for developers of such projects.

I've learned a tremendous amount in the few small months I've been toying around with these things. I almost know a little sql, can almost understand some lines of the source code, and feel very important to the 6 people who enjoy themselves on my lan server (including myself).

And as a side note, I think the people who "work" here and at other projects related to mangos deserve to be on a high horse. They put up with people like you all the time

[jdguzman]

ok dave you win. I have read and I do have an interest in the development of software such as this.

well then do something to help instead of arguing. dave in no way was trying to belittle you rather he was trying to inform you as to how this community works.

But if its just to learn, think I would rather pay to play, like most people, and be part of a larger comunity.

that is your prerogative. if your intention is to just play the game then it would probably be better to pay your 15 dollars and be done with it. if your intention is to learn HOW the game works then this is the place for you.

oh and am such bizzard has a few things to say about how legal reverse engineering there software is in the first place and using ad.exe to extract maps from there software too.

if you read into the history of mangos you will see that this project is perfectly legal and has had legal council confirm the legality of it. as subhuman_bob said the extraction of compressed files is not illegal although the distribution of it would be. probably the only place where a suit against reverse engineering would even stand a chance is in the US as the big software companies have lobbied to get favorable legislation in place for them; however, even there they would have a tough fight.

So what was just a questions about, a better/different way to do things. Is now just about a mod sitting on his high horse. I hope you feel good about that. Dave

No one is sitting on a high horse. you made a suggestion which and it was then clarified that your suggestion would go against the core rules of using mangos. i don't see how that is considered sitting on a high horse. to be honest the first one to take on a sarcastic attitude was you by saying this project is confused.

to be clear this project is not confused about what it is. it is posted in this forum and the mods make sure that the community adheres to the projects rules. apparently you are the one that was a little confused thinking that this was just another "hacker" forum.

cheers

[cpy]

Why would you need gui ffs? I want to see even custom client i never got it to work but hey i will try it some time and it sounds fun!

[subhuman_bob]

probably the only place where a suit against reverse engineering would even stand a chance is in the US as the big software companies have lobbied to get favorable legislation in place for them; however, even there they would have a tough fight.

Numerous projects and even commercial ventures do this exact same thing quite legally. Even in the US, the court precedent states (roughly) that if a product processes the same data as another product, and supplies the same output, it's not infringing as long as the intermediate steps are different.

Example:

You have two products; their purpose is to determine something's color.

Original product analyzes light reflecting off the object, determines that 980nm wavelength light is reflected and states that the object is red.

Other product analyzes reflected light, and determines that orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet light are not reflected, thus the object must be red.

Same data in, same answer out- but the process is different thus it's not infringing.

If you want, I can even cite precedent ( SEA vs. PkWare comes to mind) where identical source code- even spelling errors- was found and results of the court case did NOT involve any monetary penalties.

In the EULA you do agree to not reverse-engineer the client; however this does not mean you're open to prosecution if you do so. The copyright holder may be able to revoke your license to that software- but they can't even do this much in all locations. Sure, the EULA states that they'll prosecute you if you break it- however that doesn't mean they'll win. I can state I'm going to sue anyone I see wearing a blue shirt, but that doesn't mean I'll win- plus the courts would probably send some hefty fines my way for filing frivolous suit.

Feel free to get your own legal counsel on this. However my opinion is that if they want to take me to court to inform me that I can no longer legally use software that they gave me for free, they can go right ahead.

[Senpuria]

hummm, I see this project is very confused, about what it is.

I doubt that very much. Everybody who views these forums or is a part of this community knows full well MaNGOS is an educational project.

Is a list of private servers not a public list ?

Right? And how do you propose we stop thousands of people making public servers without destroying the project?

I think your the one who's confused, keep your scripts =)

[merovingian]

I've used some web apps(server mgmt, admin gui,...) integrated with mangos, but i guessed it would be too complicated to convert mangos itself (binaries.., dlls..., maps) to web apps.

Maybe its possible if mangos would be converted to C# using Visual Studio 2010.

[Cypherjb]

ok dave you win. I have read and I do have an interest in the development of software such as this.

But if its just to learn, think I would rather pay to play, like most people, and be part of a larger comunity.

oh and am such bizzard has a few things to say about how legal reverse engineering there software is in the first place and using ad.exe to extract maps from there software too.

So what was just a questions about, a better/different way to do things. Is now just about a mod sitting on his high horse. I hope you feel good about that. Dave

You're totally clueless, please do some research before throwing around information you pulled from your ass.

I cite 'Sega v. Accolade':

"Where disassembly is the only way to gain access to the ideas and functional elements embodied in a copyrighted computer program and where there is a legitimate reason for seeking such access, disassembly is a fair use of the copyrighted work, as a matter of law"

Reverse engineering for the purposes of interoperability is considered lawful in most (if not all) US states/regions/etc. Because none of the Mangos project infringes on patent/copyright/trademark laws there is no issue with the legality of the project.

Distributing map/dbc/etc files would be illegal, the legality of distributing SQL dumps with quest/npc/etc spawns is highly questionable. The legality of the mangos project itself though is perfectly clear, no rights of Blizzard are being infringed upon, and reverse engineering the World of Warcraft client is a perfectly legal process because it is being done to discover information about proprietary file formats or network protocols.

As a side note, here are some quotes from the Chilling Effects FAQ on Reverse Engineering (site seems to be down currently):

Question: Is reverse engineering legal?

Answer: Reverse engineering has long been held a legitimate form of discovery in both legislation and court opinions. The Supreme Court has confronted the issue of reverse engineering in mechanical technologies several times, upholding it under the principles that it is an important method of the dissemination of ideas and that it encourages innovation in the marketplace. The Supreme Court addressed the first principle in Kewanee Oil v. Bicron, a case involving trade secret protection over synthetic crystals manufacturing by defining reverse engineering as "a fair and honest means of starting with the known product and working backwards to divine the process which aided in its development or manufacture." [416 U.S. 470, 476 (1974)] The principle that reverse engineering encourages innovation was articulated in Bonito Boats. v. Thunder Craft, a case involving laws forbidding the reverse engineering of the molding process of boat hulls, when the Supreme Court said that "the competitive reality of reverse engineering may act as a spur to the inventor, creating an incentive to develop inventions that meet the rigorous requirements of patentability." [489 U.S. 141 160 (1989)]

Congress has also passed legislation in a number of different technological areas specifically permitting reverse engineering. The Semiconductor Chip Protection Act (SCPA) explicitly includes a reverse engineering privilege allowing semiconductor chip designers to study the layout of circuits and incorporate that knowledge into the design of new chips. The Competition of Contracting Act of 1984 allows the defense industry to inspect and analyze the spare parts it purchases in order to facilitate competition in government contracts.

The law regarding reverse engineering in the computer software and hardware context is less clear, but has been described by many courts as an important part of software development. The reverse engineering of software faces considerable legal challenges due to the enforcement of anti reverse engineering licensing provisions and the prohibition on the circumvention of technologies embedded within protection measures. By enforcing these legal mechanisms, courts are not required to examine the reverse engineering restrictions under federal intellectual property law. In circumstances involving anti reverse engineering licensing provisions, courts must first determine whether the enforcement of these provisions within contracts are preempted by federal intellectual property law considerations. Under DMCA claims involving the circumvention of technological protection systems, courts analyze whether or not the reverse engineering in question qualifies under any of the exemptions contained within the law.

Question: Are licensing provisions prohibiting reverse engineering enforceable?

Answer: While the validity of licensing prohibitions of reverse engineering has not yet been decided by courts, the conflict between state laws that would enforce these provisions and federal intellectual property law has been addressed. When considering cases where breach of contract or trade secret misappropriation is claimed (both state law claims), courts must first determine whether or not intellectual property law preempts those contracts enforced by the individual state. Preemption occurs when courts determine that federal intellectual property law must be considered in order to address the issues involved in the particular provisions.

Section 301 of the Copyright Act provides that a state law claim is preempted if:

(1) the work to be protected comes within the subject matter of copyright; and

(2) the state-created right forming the basis of the state law claim is equivalent to any of the exclusive rights within the general scope of copyright."

In order for the claim to be preempted it must first pass this equivalency test, which determines whether the state-created rights in upholding the contract are merely alternative articulations of the exclusive rights of copyright law. If the court determines that the contract provisions contain an "extra element" that require analysis of the contract to be preempted by copyright law, the courts generally proceed to an analysis of the possible infringement or exemption under fair use of the activities of the reverse engineer.

Disclaimer: I am NOTE a lawyer and none of the above constitutes legal advice. I am a student and casual freelance software developer. One thing to note is that although I am NOT a lawyer by trade I have consulted a lawyer for multiple projects that required reverse engineering, if you are doubtful about the legality of your specific project I suggest you do the same.

[orignboy]

You lot are so touchy. And be your own admissions, is everything contained in the mangos project 100% clear and legal NO. You guys don't want help building a web based admin core for managing a (now lets get this right) private server (which may contain 1000's of players but that's still private) then it is a loss for the project as a whole.

And if you guys think that this software is not illegally used then you are very confused. I know of many servers operating people pay and its not blizzard, I have seen the lists of servers publicly saving come and play. So don't kid yourselves, as I know for a fact code contributors to this project run some of them

As for quote X Vs Y. Bob Vs Joe, anyone can fine a story to fit there view

I remember this one,

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/08/23/secfocus_lynn/ (this site does work)

or if you actually read something like

http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/DownloadableAssets/AMD_-_Intel_Litigation_History.pdf

you will find wins on both sides

oh and was there not that one about reverse engineering the oyster card

and if I really cared that much, I could spend hours(like you did) looking for all the cases that were dropped and the guy was hired by the company that was trying to get them.

I just find it strange that people would rather, start a flame war. Than talk about what would be very useful user friendly control system for the software.

Anyway i'll stick to answering the PM'S from forum users that says you guys don't give a crap, and are no help.

Anyone wants help building stuff in php, compiling on multiple linux distributions, or needs a hand getting to grips with the ever changing database tables (thats not a complement on the project) just give me a shout always happy to help.

oh and I like the "I don't really know what I'm talking about but I asked this guy in the pub that's a law student" disclaimer .. nice

[caeruleaus]

they know public server lists exist, but they are saying they do not support those websites in anyway. To correctly test something like mangos you do need these illegal private servers for mass bug testing (as is the case with a lot of things.) But just be aware that any legal issues are done by the hosters of these servers and not the mangos devs.

[davemm]

i think its time this was closed.