Shinzon

I think we should have some sort of a bot... that is always looking for people posting 3.0.2 posts... and just instantly delete them.

This is absurd!

Actually it wouldn't be the first one. Dythzer posted a youtube video in which a open source MMORPG gamedeveloper talks about the good and bad in open source gamedeveloping. As seen in the clip/video there are some negative sides of having it open source as well. Check it out:

Cheers

Very interesting. Thank you jaggex.

Give away free tshirts... everyone loves tshirts!

Actually, I had an idea which I am working on with several other companies which.. might work out in your favor.

I am part of an actual gaming client relation program. I know my in/outs with the buisness and well know some people. I know were working on a program that would allow ingame advertisment without the interruption.

An example we created for for Madden 09. It was a modified version of there banners that they have set up along the edge of the playing field. It would auto cycle through while on Live/WindowsLive, and rotate banners inside the game. Basically allowing companies to bid/buy a slot to show there banner ad, in game. Imagine the profits from that.

Could your game have any situation where this technology be proficient? Maybe a billboard that rotates loading new ads pending on time in game etc.

-Mynt

VERY interesting idea. Perhaps a little TOO realistic (isn't that one of the reasons we play games... to escape reality? jk)... lol. But I like it. Definitly a viable alternative to offering a less expensive game and actually raising money to pay for R&D of it.

Nearly 5% of the gamers would pay 300-500$ for a gaming hardware, 50% of them will know about your game?, and Lets say it's a super duper impressing piece, 80% of them will pay for it. very tiny small chance to count on my friend.

EDIT : Just as a note, Those hardwares Like blizzard Sell (gamepads, spical keyboards) were ment for advertisement. and your aim should go no farther then that.

My suggestion would be making the game with free client and monthly payment. just like blizzard did. was succesfull wasn't it ?

Another thing to point: What realy made those games in the top of the today's market is not just thier old history or new futures, it's design of the game, you see, WOW's was realy atractive somehow, No one could resist it

Hmmm... interesting thoughts. But I'll let you be the judge once I can tell you WHAT the hardware actually is.

@subhuman_bob

I completely understand where you're coming from. You are right in a lot of respects. I used to develop programs and also repair computers for people (still do) and I charged very little. Several of my clients told me that I was losing customers BECAUSE they didn't think I was good enough. Otherwise I would have charged more. So I jacked up my rates so they were more "mainstream" but within a margin below the competition... and suddenly I had people being scheduled weeks or months in advance because they thought I must be "good enough" but I was reasonalby priced.

I still think it's crazy. But that's my opinion.

@Mynt

I also understand your side of the board and I know first hand what it's like to be down there at teh bottome of the barrel willing to get "bargin" games. I wanted to target people who enjoy playing, but can't afford a fortune. (like college students).

@jaggex

Perhaps the best avenue is to have the client for free or nearly free and market the hardware through the game stores. After all the hardware is going to cost between $300.00 - $500.00. But it will be SO worth it.

Can a Mod please close this topic?

I'm not saying one way or another about Git... this has just gone on for sooooo llloooonnnggg. We get the point. Some people like it... some people hate it.

I mean come on... 112 replies?

@Ntsc, I'll do my best to answer some of your questions.

Personally I'd suggest just getting a team together and making a demo then throwing that to your investors.

That was ultimately my goal, however I do not have a solid enough group of developers to do so. Also, most investors are very nervous about investing in a video game idea or company as there have been so many failures. They are however interested in possibly investing a new invention that I have come with for game interface. I can't go into details because the Patent is currently being filed, but in 5 weeks or so I'll be able to talk about that aspect.

The real challenge is that you need to really have motivation and a well rounded team to put together a real game. I've created a few games on my own but it is impossible to create a quality game with a small team of less than 10 within a reasonable amount of time.

My ultimate goal, quite honestly was to get together a team of about 30-50 top-notch developers and artists to design the game and the original plan was to market it against the big dogs (EA, Blizzard, Lionhead, etc.), I even have a very well known music composer that was willing to do the score for it. (Yes, I know music isn't everything... but this guy has done some VERY good blockbuster movies... advantages to living in Boston, MA).

However, in light of the lack of investor interest I have refocused my idea to a 3D replacement for board based RP games (possibly).

Would I still love to release the game as a main-stream competitor against some of the big game companies? ABSOLUTLY... I just don't know that it is feasible.

There are a lot of questions that interested developers would like to ask:

• * What kind of game are you aiming for?
  * Why such a short time frame (March 15th, 09)?
  * Do you have any concept art or anything beside a basic idea? (flesh it out more if not)
  * What will set your game apart from others?
  

1. As for "What kind of game I'm aiming for" - My big thing has been the desire to create a game where I can provide the client for free (or as close to free as possible) and charge about $9.00 - $13.00 USD per month for connectivity. The reason is, I think too many game companies 'scalp' their customers by charging them at the store and then charge them a monthly fee as well. I would like to create something that is open source in that there is a solid story line for the game (Which we definitely have), but the you can buy tools where you can create additional aspects to the storyline making it your own 'branch' of the story and publish it on the servers along with your own quests, etc.. Also these tools would allow starting developers to create their own NPCs or game objects so that they can integrate that into their storyline.

Yes, I know this is no small idea... monumentally large even.

2.The time frame of March '09 is the START date... I want to finish production by May 2010 for release (yes, I know that is ambitious).

3. I do have MUCH more than concept developed. Not a lot of art, more textual descriptions of everything in the storyline. There are three factions, six species and about 3-4 classes per species (and yes.. no elves... or dwarfs... or anything you've ever seen before). One of the class of one of the species actually can shift factions (long story). It takes place in the future but is fused to the past... so there is TONS that can be done in the way of creativity. The real trick for this game is that there is an additional output to the game interface... one that's never been done before. So we may have to develop a separate core just for that capability in addition to the normal core. (sorry to be so vague)

4.Honestly, most of what I've mentioned will set it apart. The fact that it CAN be modified if you get the tools for it. The fact that it is using an interface never before used in the gaming (or any other) industry.

These are the "phases" that I'd assume for such a project.

1. Idea / Concept art. You need to have some ideas down on paper about what your game is going to be and how you are going to accomplish it.

2. Team Gathering. Get together your lead programmer, lead modeler, lead writer, and lead manager (this could be you)

3. Design your base engine and create a working demo. Make it simple and fast. Don't worry to much about mistakes and inaccuracies.

4. Use this base engine / demo to get funding. If it is an open source project use the demo to attract more developers.

5. Finalize your ideas. Figure out the EXACT direction that you want your game to go. What story it should have, what is your audience, etc.

6. Start developing!

Yes, that sounds very realistic and is right along the lines of what I'm looking for. Now here is the thing, I do have a "fair" data center out of my own home (which may sound a little absurd, but I don't joke around when I build home netwoks... lol ). I have two Dell M1000e's each containing 6 M605's with 2.8 TB total internal network storage space. I also have a 45MB/sec up and down fiber optic connection to the Internet. So I see no reason that development can't start whenever I figure out the logistics of how to go about it.

I would really like to publish the storyline so that you guys can get a better idea of what we are looking at. However I do not know how to protect the work under copyright and ensure that it remains ONLY within the project. I do have non-disclosure agreements that I've been having everyone sign within the U.S. that is involved, however I do not think those are legally binding outside the U.S. I'll have to talk to my attorneys to find out.

Let me know you're thoughts.

Hi Shinzon,

a client for MaNGOS is under development over at http://www.mangosclient.org

this can be used as a starting point for the development of a MaNGOS-based "MMORPG-creation-kit"

shlainn

Yes, I know. I was thinking of a much larger client design. TheLuda and I have spoken a little about it. I'll post more information as I have it.

Git is based on a SHA1 hash of commit. That way, it's not based on "rev numbers" but individual changes.

If I pull your change, it won't be different from someone else pulling your change. We will both be getting commit <SHA1 ID> rather than rev 23, 55, 1230.

Hmm... too bad we can't have a SHA1 decrypter built into our heads... would make things much easier.

Is there a link to the patch? I am setting up a test 3.0.2 server to run along side my stable 2.4.3 server.

I take it the answer to this was no?

LOL, nice. Brunogcar do you know if Death had planned to implement it as an IRC bot or as a player emulator?

This sounds very much like adding the client tools, and the tools to develop actual data to MaNGOS, and turn it into a whole MMORPG eco system. The idea itself is not bad. But it surely will come with some development costs, and would require a very well thought out development workflow.

Well, yes it is. As far as development costs, I may be willing to front that. I think we would have to set it up so that the copyright is under the Non-Profit Organization of whatever we decide to develop it under. (as it will be open source, there should still be a copyright carried)

Doable? Yes. There just needs to be an aim inside all that. And it has to be a very good one, because if you want to target mass market, you can see that besides Blizzard Entertainment other MMORPG developers hardly see the ground when it comes to attracting the mass market.

Given that it's non-profit at least in the U.S. there are a lot of good avenues we can take. If we are not for profit we can do "public service announcements" for next to nothing. I think we should have a niche, what's going to make this "The best damn MMORPG out there"? What is going to make it different? Do I have a very solid storyline... yes. I don't quite want go into details on it, but it exists on earth and has future concepts... and ancient concepts in it. It's a collaboration of several friends (Including Dimmy434).

I have a crazy idea. I was talking to several of the investors and they are concerned because there have been many MMORPGs out there that were developed, invested in that never got off the ground. I have a really great storyline, class structure, very unique idea. However, given the current economic situation, investors are fearful of paying to have a game developed.

So here is my crazy idea. Let me know what you all think.

What if... we were to develop our own Client. Perhaps work hand in hand with Mangos and develop a serious, high end client / server game? But... do it all as open source? Create a new website / forums for the client, make it compatible with Mangos. The client would be free to download, we'd create builds from time to time and put out a torrent that players could download.

We would have to create custom artwork, game objects, maps, music, etc. But I really think there are enough of us that if we all put our heads together we can do it.

What do you think?

I will provide the data center... websites, etc. and we can all work together. Not to "make a buck" but to make the best damn mmorpg out there.

It would have to be locked down as tightly as Mangos is... in terms of the development, orchestration, etc.

I'd love to hear people's opinions.

Subversion isn't user-friendly either, but it looks sexy with TortoiseSVN.

I checked out Eclipse... it's pretty "sexy"

Sounds appealing though... believe it or not. As I've stated before... I like change. Change is good (painful... but good)

They've really changed the data packets that much? What is the reasoning for that? Are they more directed rather than broadcast? Do you think this this will lead to a more efficient flow of data between the client and the core? or are they just doing this to tighten the grip on thier propriatary structure?

I personaly am really interested in what it takes to go from one version to another. And if I have the skills to help I would like to. But if everything is done behind closed door I am learning nothing and can't even know if I could help.

Now this is sounding kind of like a complaint... Sorry about that. Not what I am trying to do. Ill shutup now...

Now that is exactly what my thought process was when I made the statement above of saying it's a great idea. Though I do completely understand where Subhuman_bob is coming from. See I really would love to get more in on the development life cycle... and be a part of it. Am I very good? No... Can I be if I can 'watch' what is happening? Yes... I think so. Or at least be able to help.

Actually it's a really, really bad idea.

If that were available, the majority of people would be using it. The fact that you're asking about it makes me suspect you'd probably be using it.

Bug reports would crop up everywhere, even though it wouldn't be a supported version. This would cause

a slowdown in development instead of an accelleration. The character converter probably isn't working yet, and would probably trash everyone's characters. Your error log would reach several gigs in size within hours. Stability would be horrible. Bugs would be everywhere.

Of course, when it is finally released there will still be plenty of bugs and it won't be as stable as the current 2.4.x versions. There's also a chance characters may be corrupted (it's happened before with major rev changes). However, releasing it early will only make those issues much worse.

Kaboom! Subhuman_bob puts Shinzon in his place again....

Yeah, I guess I didn't really think about all aspects... I just thought about the idea of being able to look and see the developmental changes (granted I guess I can do that just as well in github).

Sorry subhuman... thank you. You are correct and wise...

I think discussion go to offtopic. If this will go in current way, i will just close it.

Totally Agree. Please close.

P.S. Vanilla is my favorite flavor of ice cream. Even if you like chocolate, I still prefer vanilla. This is based solely on my personal experience and opinion. If you don't like it, tough. I refuse to apologize for preferring vanilla ice cream.

:confused: huh? What? Where did that come from?

P.S. Chocolate is better! LOL

Ok, I don't mean to beat anyone's brain into a bloody pulp... but I guess that something I'm not getting here is where do we get the commit id's from? before it was a simple revert to version... now we are pulling this commit id... from where?

:confused:

Oh my god! Was I being a blockhead! forgive me oh God of Development where ever you may be... I am such an idiot... here I am browseing all around the github and staring me right in the face is the branch id, commit id and the parent id... Man, I really need a vacation.

A git branch for 3.0.2 would be awesome so we can see the progress. It doesn't have to be officially supported yet, but when it's ready you just merge it to the master branch or something. I think it would be very interesting to see how the developers work when updating for a new client.

That's a really good idea.

Wikipedia is your friend.

Point taken... and research completed. Thanks subhuman. You're always so good at putting me in my place (tactfully of course). I mean that in the nicest way too... Thank you.

git checkout commit-id

example:

git checkout 639a811b8182e39ff1f0b38157d740b7329a2489

and then to create a new branch for that commit, do git checkout -b branchname

Ok, I don't mean to beat anyone's brain into a bloody pulp... but I guess that something I'm not getting here is where do we get the commit id's from? before it was a simple revert to version... now we are pulling this commit id... from where?

:confused:

jdguz Thank you very much... that does help me understand it.

I happen to agree with you Kolapse... as much as I am "content" with the old Tortoise SVN, I am always happy to embrace new tools and expand my comprehension of new ideas and technologies.

Isn't that what Mangos is all about anyway? Us trying new things... learning how to create something and expanding our horizons?

~I think it is.

I know that question may be a little noob... but I'm just curious, what does the new ACE_Wrapper actually do?

Do you have a "commercial" budget?

Yes. But can't go into specifics until people sign an NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement)