New MMPORPG Being developed (Boston, MA)

[Auntie Mangos]

Shinzon:

I got same problems in my country. I got also an idea about mmorpg, which is unique on mmorpg market. But again investors are afraid of losing money. While in my country also there is not "such" people who woud come with you and make a mmorpg, becouse they are all 30+ of age and all fucked up like hell .....

So for me woud only stays this option:

- Geting my company up and running.

- Employing some team members and developing mmorpg on my own.

- Geting the site online & showing few internest sites, that there is a new mmorpg in development.

I know, such idea is really bad, but there are tools on the net which can boost up your process in development.

[Auntie Mangos]

What I had said, is that using a premade script, as in a 3d rendering engine. "Unreal, Orge, RealmCrafter, TreeSpace, Openworld, Dreamworld, ..etc" is not as effecient as making your own code. You cannot tell me it can't be done. You write your own engine for everything you do, if you agree or not you do. All an Engine is, is a force or working script that will handle the elements that you throw at it. No matter what you throw at it, it will parse/understand what you said, and create a defined output based on your input limitations. Thats all.

Using premade tools, 3DSm, Flash, Mp3/4/G encoders, Wav directions, lightmapping etc, is all technology that is released for ease. No matter which way you do it, you will always come out with the same thing using those tools. Hence why they are tools. As for 3d Engines, they are Mechanics, or Outlets, meaning there are 100000000000000000 possibilities on what can happen when you output the code.

First off I think we are defining engine and library differently. I was using engine as another way to say library. Unreal and ReamCrafter are more Engines as they provide nearly everything you need to create a game quickly. Ogre is more of a library as it only provides some basic 3d functionality and by itself cannot make a game.

I've actually worked with the Unreal engine, Ogre, and Irrlicht. The second two are not a preset number of outcomes. Neither Ogre nor Irrlicht have collision systems built in nor are script systems. They are purely 3d libraries. You can make any type of game with them. Unreal is somewhat designed in that way but even the Unreal engine is designed to allow C++ code to be integrated with it though (and in some licensing cases you are given the full source code).

I would say that is far more efficient to use an existing library than writing your own. 3d libraries require you to write your own import mechanisms for meshes which is very difficult (or write an exporter for Maya to export to your proprietary format). Not to mention your own scene node system, material + texture + shader systems, camera & viewport systems, lightmapping, and timing methods. Neither Direct3d nor OpenGL will do these for you. They only provide basic calls like IDirect3DDevice9:: DrawPrimitive, IDirect3DDevice9::SetPixelShader, IDirect3DDevice9::SetTexture.

The same goes for a quality Audio Library. Sure you can use DirectSound8 but it is far easier and faster to implement FMOD which supports MP3s nativity along with support for file streaming (which is a pain to implement well).

"...using a premade script, as in a 3d rendering engine, is not as efficient as making your own code"

Efficiency= time. You can spend years writing your own 3d graphical libs or you could just download / license one and start working on coding the actual game. I would agree with you if the engine limited what you could do but in the cases I've listed above they do not.

[Auntie Mangos]

First off I think we are defining engine and library differently. I was using engine as another way to say library. Unreal and ReamCrafter are more Engines as they provide nearly everything you need to create a game quickly. Ogre is more of a library as it only provides some basic 3d functionality and by itself cannot make a game.

I've actually worked with the Unreal engine, Ogre, and Irrlicht. The second two are not a preset number of outcomes. Neither Ogre nor Irrlicht have collision systems built in nor are script systems. They are purely 3d libraries. You can make any type of game with them. Unreal is somewhat designed in that way but even the Unreal engine is designed to allow C++ code to be integrated with it though (and in some licensing cases you are given the full source code).

I would say that is far more efficient to use an existing library than writing your own. 3d libraries require you to write your own import mechanisms for meshes which is very difficult (or write an exporter for Maya to export to your proprietary format). Not to mention your own scene node system, material + texture + shader systems, camera & viewport systems, lightmapping, and timing methods. Neither Direct3d nor OpenGL will do these for you. They only provide basic calls like IDirect3DDevice9:: DrawPrimitive, IDirect3DDevice9::SetPixelShader, IDirect3DDevice9::SetTexture.

The same goes for a quality Audio Library. Sure you can use DirectSound8 but it is far easier and faster to implement FMOD which supports MP3s nativity along with support for file streaming (which is a pain to implement well).

"...using a premade script, as in a 3d rendering engine, is not as efficient as making your own code"

Efficiency= time. You can spend years writing your own 3d graphical libs or you could just download / license one and start working on coding the actual game. I would agree with you if the engine limited what you could do but in the cases I've listed above they do not.

Touche`.

The problem I see with using premade enviroments, (I say this because I have worked on projects, as stated before), is that it never has a good outcome. Of course, I am coming from an area that is an actual field. I created video games for money. Of course, as a hobbyist its a completly different world vs a competitive world. Sit on board meetings, having people bashing in there heads because they decided to go with Torque instead of Panda.

When you have been where a project you have been working on for 3 years gets cancelled out of nowhere because the Director decided that the project just well wasn't good enough to his expectations. Let me know what you think then. I come from experiance, and well truth be told. I would take the time to program what I want in the game, and what is needed. Or you can go with the latter. The direction of a video game changes from pen and paper to full scale design. It doesn't change once, it changes alot.

That three year project caused me to go bankrupt, as I went without pay for 5 months. I joined the military because of it. Why? We went with Torque instead of Panda, and blew 32,000$ plus another $100,000+ on getting studio version for multiple people. It was great, until we wanted to add this, or create that.. or we found out the hard way that PS3 doesn't support all of Torques Engine. Had we used Panda (library) instead of a premade, we could have written and adapted the renders in the engine.. but once again.. thats all up to the head man.

I don't agree with using a premade. I don't agree with not using a premade. It boils down to exactly what you said. Are you in for the long haul, IE making something that would ultimatly just be outdated very simply by writing your own. Or you looking for effeciency. Are you the next Age of Conan? Or are you the next World of Warcraft. I bet alot of you didn't know that Warcraft 3, and WoW are based of the Unreal3d Engine. The new diablo is also ;-). However, Orge3d is being used in SC2. But what do I know.. I have only made 2 launch titles, and 1 unsuccessful game.

-Mynt

[Shinzon]

I'm not really sure where to post this, but I thought the community should have the chance to get in on this. I am starting a company that is developing a new MMPORPG with totally new technology. The launch date for the company is March 15th, 2009. We are still putting together our team, but I need the best of the best as we are going up against some very heavy hitters (Blizzard, EA Games, Lionhead, etc.).

We already have a fair amount of funding from VC's and Angel Investors and are still putting together more funding. We also have a solid business plan developed and storyline.

I am looking for:

• TOP NOTCH Server and Client Developers to develop the core and client.

(this will be a very special core... I can explain in more detail once we talk)

• Animators & Artists

Interested candidates should be willing to sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement and should (ideally, but not neccessarily) be close to Boston, MA or willing to travel and may submit resumes / and or samples to [email protected]

Moderators, if you'd prefer this topic not in Mangos, please let me know. I just can't think of a better place than here to find high quality developers.

[xfire]

Do you have a "commercial" budget?

[Shinzon]

Do you have a "commercial" budget?

Yes. But can't go into specifics until people sign an NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement)

[Shinzon]

I have a crazy idea. I was talking to several of the investors and they are concerned because there have been many MMORPGs out there that were developed, invested in that never got off the ground. I have a really great storyline, class structure, very unique idea. However, given the current economic situation, investors are fearful of paying to have a game developed.

So here is my crazy idea. Let me know what you all think.

What if... we were to develop our own Client. Perhaps work hand in hand with Mangos and develop a serious, high end client / server game? But... do it all as open source? Create a new website / forums for the client, make it compatible with Mangos. The client would be free to download, we'd create builds from time to time and put out a torrent that players could download.

We would have to create custom artwork, game objects, maps, music, etc. But I really think there are enough of us that if we all put our heads together we can do it.

What do you think?

I will provide the data center... websites, etc. and we can all work together. Not to "make a buck" but to make the best damn mmorpg out there.

It would have to be locked down as tightly as Mangos is... in terms of the development, orchestration, etc.

I'd love to hear people's opinions.

[Birdman]

Making the best damn MMORPG for free might sound good for now but when it actually turns out that it will be a sucess some minds will turn to greed and money as always.

Maybe you could give us a few insights so people will have a general ideea what it's all about ?

Also keep in mind that it will have to start from ground 0 meaning a lot of reading and caching up to the companies that have been doing this for years.

[TheLuda]

This sounds very much like adding the client tools, and the tools to develop actual data to MaNGOS, and turn it into a whole MMORPG eco system. The idea itself is not bad. But it surely will come with some development costs, and would require a very well thought out development workflow.

Doable? Yes. There just needs to be an aim inside all that. And it has to be a very good one, because if you want to target mass market, you can see that besides Blizzard Entertainment other MMORPG developers hardly see the ground when it comes to attracting the mass market.

[Shinzon]

This sounds very much like adding the client tools, and the tools to develop actual data to MaNGOS, and turn it into a whole MMORPG eco system. The idea itself is not bad. But it surely will come with some development costs, and would require a very well thought out development workflow.

Well, yes it is. As far as development costs, I may be willing to front that. I think we would have to set it up so that the copyright is under the Non-Profit Organization of whatever we decide to develop it under. (as it will be open source, there should still be a copyright carried)

Doable? Yes. There just needs to be an aim inside all that. And it has to be a very good one, because if you want to target mass market, you can see that besides Blizzard Entertainment other MMORPG developers hardly see the ground when it comes to attracting the mass market.

Given that it's non-profit at least in the U.S. there are a lot of good avenues we can take. If we are not for profit we can do "public service announcements" for next to nothing. I think we should have a niche, what's going to make this "The best damn MMORPG out there"? What is going to make it different? Do I have a very solid storyline... yes. I don't quite want go into details on it, but it exists on earth and has future concepts... and ancient concepts in it. It's a collaboration of several friends (Including Dimmy434).

[Mynt]

I would be willing to help :-) And I will be emailing you.

I have thought of many ideas for an opensource style game, much like the enviroment is built off a second life style enthusiasm base. The concept is simple and I will be emailing you with my credentials shortly.

One of the best ideas ever created was a game called Graal. It had its own server that players subscribed to. As well as a place where players could lease a server with the development tools to build there own world with an editor. This created a mass network for players to basically do what they wanted and a great way for gamers to enjoy others gamers ideas.

Sadly, as technology progressed, so did the company. They started making alot of profit off of it, and players stopped playing because the company worked on there server and didn't update the community servers. Thus the community fell after 5 years. However, the company turned into a huge success, and many of the developers that worked on Graal are actually the people that worked hand in hand in Maple Story.. and we all know how well thats working out!

-Mynt

[shlainn]

Hi Shinzon,

a client for MaNGOS is under development over at http://www.mangosclient.org

this can be used as a starting point for the development of a MaNGOS-based "MMORPG-creation-kit"

shlainn

[Shinzon]

Hi Shinzon,

a client for MaNGOS is under development over at http://www.mangosclient.org

this can be used as a starting point for the development of a MaNGOS-based "MMORPG-creation-kit"

shlainn

Yes, I know. I was thinking of a much larger client design. TheLuda and I have spoken a little about it. I'll post more information as I have it.

[Ntsc]

Personally I'd suggest just getting a team together and making a demo then throwing that to your investors.

The real challenge is that you need to really have motivation and a well rounded team to put together a real game. I've created a few games on my own but it is impossible to create a quality game with a small team of less than 10 within a reasonable amount of time.

There are a lot of questions that interested developers would like to ask:

• * What kind of game are you aiming for?
  * Why such a short time frame (March 15th, 09)?
  * Do you have any concept art or anything beside a basic idea? (flesh it out more if not)
  * What will set your game apart from others?
  

These are the "phases" that I'd assume for such a project.

1. Idea / Concept art. You need to have some ideas down on paper about what your game is going to be and how you are going to accomplish it.

2. Team Gathering. Get together your lead programmer, lead modeler, lead writer, and lead manager (this could be you)

3. Design your base engine and create a working demo. Make it simple and fast. Don't worry to much about mistakes and inaccuracies.

4. Use this base engine / demo to get funding. If it is an open source project use the demo to attract more developers.

5. Finalize your ideas. Figure out the EXACT direction that you want your game to go. What story it should have, what is your audiance, etc.

6. Start developing!

Edit:

One of the best ideas ever created was a game called Graal. It had its own server that players subscribed to. As well as a place where players could lease a server with the development tools to build there own world with an editor. This created a mass network for players to basically do what they wanted and a great way for gamers to enjoy others gamers ideas.t

OMG I finally found someone else who played graal?!?!?!

Graal is the entire reason I started programming. I loved that game. I played from 1.11 to 1.42 but could never really get into the whole Graal 2000 and beyond.

[Mynt]

If you don't mind me throwing in some input.

Client design should be taken into consideration for older systems.

Are you planning on writing your own engine completly? Or are you planning on updating an older version of an engine?

When making your client, make sure to make it xplatform for how ever deep and old the persons computer is. This will take a little more dev time, but reducing the quality of images, terrain, graphics for elder computers but still keeping it up high end is a good way to attract a larger base.

[NATINO1]

I think its a waste of time.Probably hard , and a high chance of getting cancelled while in progress

Hey, why dont u just help mangos do their thing

[throneinc]

Well, i always had the dream of making my own MMORPG, however... creating a game wont just require some sightfull ideas and hopes, that would require alot of money, alot of effort, iam sure u know .

anyway... if you ever managed to start working on somthing that one day will be come real. PM me or add me to msn, i am a 3d designer after all

[Dythzer]

There is a pretty interesting video from googletalk about an open source MMORPG called planeshift. You should check it out if you're interesting in creating an own MMORPG.

As posted above, it sounds really hard, probably requires hundreds of developers and it will still take years

[Shinzon]

@Ntsc, I'll do my best to answer some of your questions.

Personally I'd suggest just getting a team together and making a demo then throwing that to your investors.

That was ultimately my goal, however I do not have a solid enough group of developers to do so. Also, most investors are very nervous about investing in a video game idea or company as there have been so many failures. They are however interested in possibly investing a new invention that I have come with for game interface. I can't go into details because the Patent is currently being filed, but in 5 weeks or so I'll be able to talk about that aspect.

The real challenge is that you need to really have motivation and a well rounded team to put together a real game. I've created a few games on my own but it is impossible to create a quality game with a small team of less than 10 within a reasonable amount of time.

My ultimate goal, quite honestly was to get together a team of about 30-50 top-notch developers and artists to design the game and the original plan was to market it against the big dogs (EA, Blizzard, Lionhead, etc.), I even have a very well known music composer that was willing to do the score for it. (Yes, I know music isn't everything... but this guy has done some VERY good blockbuster movies... advantages to living in Boston, MA).

However, in light of the lack of investor interest I have refocused my idea to a 3D replacement for board based RP games (possibly).

Would I still love to release the game as a main-stream competitor against some of the big game companies? ABSOLUTLY... I just don't know that it is feasible.

There are a lot of questions that interested developers would like to ask:

• * What kind of game are you aiming for?
  * Why such a short time frame (March 15th, 09)?
  * Do you have any concept art or anything beside a basic idea? (flesh it out more if not)
  * What will set your game apart from others?
  

1. As for "What kind of game I'm aiming for" - My big thing has been the desire to create a game where I can provide the client for free (or as close to free as possible) and charge about $9.00 - $13.00 USD per month for connectivity. The reason is, I think too many game companies 'scalp' their customers by charging them at the store and then charge them a monthly fee as well. I would like to create something that is open source in that there is a solid story line for the game (Which we definitely have), but the you can buy tools where you can create additional aspects to the storyline making it your own 'branch' of the story and publish it on the servers along with your own quests, etc.. Also these tools would allow starting developers to create their own NPCs or game objects so that they can integrate that into their storyline.

Yes, I know this is no small idea... monumentally large even.

2.The time frame of March '09 is the START date... I want to finish production by May 2010 for release (yes, I know that is ambitious).

3. I do have MUCH more than concept developed. Not a lot of art, more textual descriptions of everything in the storyline. There are three factions, six species and about 3-4 classes per species (and yes.. no elves... or dwarfs... or anything you've ever seen before). One of the class of one of the species actually can shift factions (long story). It takes place in the future but is fused to the past... so there is TONS that can be done in the way of creativity. The real trick for this game is that there is an additional output to the game interface... one that's never been done before. So we may have to develop a separate core just for that capability in addition to the normal core. (sorry to be so vague)

4.Honestly, most of what I've mentioned will set it apart. The fact that it CAN be modified if you get the tools for it. The fact that it is using an interface never before used in the gaming (or any other) industry.

These are the "phases" that I'd assume for such a project.

1. Idea / Concept art. You need to have some ideas down on paper about what your game is going to be and how you are going to accomplish it.

2. Team Gathering. Get together your lead programmer, lead modeler, lead writer, and lead manager (this could be you)

3. Design your base engine and create a working demo. Make it simple and fast. Don't worry to much about mistakes and inaccuracies.

4. Use this base engine / demo to get funding. If it is an open source project use the demo to attract more developers.

5. Finalize your ideas. Figure out the EXACT direction that you want your game to go. What story it should have, what is your audience, etc.

6. Start developing!

Yes, that sounds very realistic and is right along the lines of what I'm looking for. Now here is the thing, I do have a "fair" data center out of my own home (which may sound a little absurd, but I don't joke around when I build home netwoks... lol ). I have two Dell M1000e's each containing 6 M605's with 2.8 TB total internal network storage space. I also have a 45MB/sec up and down fiber optic connection to the Internet. So I see no reason that development can't start whenever I figure out the logistics of how to go about it.

I would really like to publish the storyline so that you guys can get a better idea of what we are looking at. However I do not know how to protect the work under copyright and ensure that it remains ONLY within the project. I do have non-disclosure agreements that I've been having everyone sign within the U.S. that is involved, however I do not think those are legally binding outside the U.S. I'll have to talk to my attorneys to find out.

Let me know you're thoughts.

[shlainn]

Hi shinzon

1. As for "What kind of game I'm aiming for" - My big thing has been the desire to create a game where I can provide the client for free (or as close to free as possible) and charge about $9.00 - $13.00 USD per month for connectivity. The reason is, I think too many game companies 'scalp' their customers by charging them at the store and then charge them a monthly fee as well. I would like to create something that is open source in that there is a solid story line for the game (Which we definitely have), but the you can buy tools where you can create additional aspects to the storyline making it your own 'branch' of the story and publish it on the servers along with your own quests, etc.. Also these tools would allow starting developers to create their own NPCs or game objects so that they can integrate that into their storyline.

I agree with you on "scalping" the customers. But then you say that you want to sell the tools for creating custom content - isn't that "scalping" too?

2.The time frame of March '09 is the START date... I want to finish production by May 2010 for release.

This is pretty ambitious. Can you elaborate on what this estimate is based?

Now, IMHO a good story and background is very important, but the most important thing you need is a stable working engine. On client and server side. Including a rock solid implementation of your "special feature" and a graphics engine that is at least decent on the client side (if that is still required having your "special feature").

As for going up against the big guys: people always tell you that it's not possible. I would love to see them proven wrong!

On a side note, are you by chance familiar with http://www.mxac.com.au/drt/ ?

shlainn

P.S.: Your "new game interface" thingy is not by chance some exotic piece of hardware, is it? People are so ignorant when asked to abandon their well-known point-and-click interfaces...

[Mynt]

When I worked with Casual Dev Networks. (Publisher of 2 XBL games), we wrote a concept/mock up program that was a game focusing on use/input of a wacom tablet.

You want to talk about crazy? You had to draw lines etc, but it required the wacom tablet, which is why it was pretty much impossible to release. No one wants to pay 300$ for a touch/move game.

Maybe when technology gets cheaper.

-Mynt

[subhuman_bob]

1. As for "What kind of game I'm aiming for" - My big thing has been the desire to create a game where I can provide the client for free (or as close to free as possible) and charge about $9.00 - $13.00 USD per month for connectivity. The reason is, I think too many game companies 'scalp' their customers by charging them at the store and then charge them a monthly fee as well.

You have to charge something for the game. It won't be in stores otherwise. The stores do not get a cut of the monthly subscription fee- if they don't get that money right off the rack, they won't stock your product.

The idea of giving it to stores may sound tempting, but rest assured at least some of them will abuse this. They'll order many more copies than they ever intend on putting on their shelves- and each copy costs you money to produce, even if you give it away later.

There's also perception to think about: the public will think a $60 game is better than a $5 game, whether it's true or not.

[jaggex]

You have to charge something for the game. It won't be in stores otherwise. The stores do not get a cut of the monthly subscription fee- if they don't get that money right off the rack, they won't stock your product.

The idea of giving it to stores may sound tempting, but rest assured at least some of them will abuse this. They'll order many more copies than they ever intend on putting on their shelves- and each copy costs you money to produce, even if you give it away later.

There's also perception to think about: the public will think a $60 game is better than a $5 game, whether it's true or not.

True. If it have to be free then maybe its better to offer free downloads.

Shinzon:

I really do think this project seems like a very cool idea. I would love to hear the storyline and also how your team is progressing in the future. Im running a project myself (not a game though) so I recognize myself in some of the things you're currently trying to do. Just keep it up!

Cheers

[Mynt]

You have to charge something for the game. It won't be in stores otherwise. The stores do not get a cut of the monthly subscription fee- if they don't get that money right off the rack, they won't stock your product.

The idea of giving it to stores may sound tempting, but rest assured at least some of them will abuse this. They'll order many more copies than they ever intend on putting on their shelves- and each copy costs you money to produce, even if you give it away later.

There's also perception to think about: the public will think a $60 game is better than a $5 game, whether it's true or not.

Your wrong in many aspects of this.

Marketing is where it really is. People don't buy games from unknown companies, they would rather go with Mario Rpg or, Mario Shootemup, then a game called "Murder 1000 babies with a shotgun."

Its called branding. People want to spend there money with association.. hence why Halo did well, halo 2 did great, and Halo 3 was the largest launch game to date. Brand name association.

In gamestop, as well as play and trade alot of people drop off games, sharewares and freeware on the counter. They don't do it everywhere.. but it happens.

As for price. Your wrong on that. Theres alot of budget buyers. As well as people that look at getting 2 15$ games as opposed to 1 $30 game. There is alot of other factors that go in with money, if someone has a high price tag.. and you never heard of the game, why bother? What if it sucks.

World of Warcraft had 25 cent, hell even at one time, FREE discs they were handing out at gamestop and walmart with there trial. Are you going to say WoW didn't do well?

-Mynt

[jaggex]

Your wrong in many aspects of this.

Marketing is where it really is. People don't buy games from unknown companies, they would rather go with Mario Rpg or, Mario Shootemup, then a game called "Murder 1000 babies with a shotgun."

Its called branding. People want to spend there money with association.. hence why Halo did well, halo 2 did great, and Halo 3 was the largest launch game to date. Brand name association.

In gamestop, as well as play and trade alot of people drop off games, sharewares and freeware on the counter. They don't do it everywhere.. but it happens.

As for price. Your wrong on that. Theres alot of budget buyers. As well as people that look at getting 2 15$ games as opposed to 1 $30 game. There is alot of other factors that go in with money, if someone has a high price tag.. and you never heard of the game, why bother? What if it sucks.

World of Warcraft had 25 cent, hell even at one time, FREE discs they were handing out at gamestop and walmart with there trial. Are you going to say WoW didn't do well?

-Mynt

Well i think both of you have your good points. About the free wow discs. World of warcraft, the full game with 30 days playtime included isnt for free. Those free discs that shops gave to people were only to "lure" them back to the shop to buy the full version of the game - which costs money. So actually the shop earned money on giving away those free discs and that may have been the reason.

Also about the price, low price could very well be associated with low quality. "Why doesnt the gamecompany take more money for this game? Maybe it's because no one is prepared to pay more for it?" Everybody aren't low budget buyers and to launch a really successfull game i think it would be the best to try to sell to as many as possible

Cheers